Chas Jago
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Post by Chas Jago on Apr 21, 2009 19:19:55 GMT 10
Greetings my friends,
I recently entered an account to which I had been absent from and noticed a message directing myself to this forum.
As such I am here, but am alittle unsure what has transpired? Would someone care to bring me up to speed?
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Post by Eoin Ursüm on Apr 22, 2009 0:46:31 GMT 10
Hi there, and welcome!
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George
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Post by George on Apr 22, 2009 2:46:09 GMT 10
Welcome to LOM. We hope you enjoy your stay.
The other forum imploded over the past 5 weeks, as a final inevitable consequence of the malign manipulations of its former owner.
Essentially, the person in question attacked a number of longterm forum members (myself among them) via proxy, resulting in an exodus of most of the senior membership to this forum.
Unsurprisingly, LOM is now the primary forum for serious micronational discussion, as well as the primary data source concerning both online and offline micronations, by virtue of its eponymous List of Micronations, as well as its Micro Wiki, both of which are linked from my signature.
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Chas Jago
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Post by Chas Jago on Apr 22, 2009 5:46:50 GMT 10
SO why allow this person to split the community as such? To me such a split is a pointless endeavor and regrettable, but also damages the community in a time when micronations big and small need to come together in a common forum, no matter if they are enemy or friend, such is politics and diplomacy.
This is why we had forums such as micro-nations.org etc these palces were a neutral forum where friend and enemy could come together to discuss topics of mutual interest, and to separate the community as such has happened serves no purpose but to fracture the community further.
Alteria is returning to the community after a long self-imposed exclusion from it and to find such a split is regrettable and saddening.
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George
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Post by George on Apr 22, 2009 7:53:24 GMT 10
SO why allow this person to split the community as such? To me such a split is a pointless endeavor and regrettable... The person in question is, shall we say, a tad "odd". They do as they please - evidently working from the presumption that the universe revolves around them; I'm sure there's a term in the psychiatric lexicon to describe it. For years they pretended that the now failed forum was some sort of happy hippy love-in, when in reality they treated it like a personal blog, filled it with tedious off-topic "look at me!" opinion pieces, irrelevant personal minutiae, a flood of chicken little "the sky is falling!" squawking and endless sanctimonious, thinly-veiled authoritarian threats directed at perceived "enemies" - while simultaneously encouraging certifiable lunatics, racist misogynists, violence-worshipping social misfits and illiterate 3-second-attention-span adolescents with the mental age of children to run riot, because that "proved" that 'everyone was equal.' Anyone who challenged this wacky world view (by insisting that contributors show basic respect to others by writing messages in comprehensible English, for example) was subjected to attack by proxy; typically the proxy was a young, unsophisticated, trigger-happy newbie, who lacked the requisite historical perspective, intellectual capacity and critical subtlety to grasp both the context and the subtext of much of what passed for discussion there. It was all really rather pathetic, so it's no surprise that everybody of consequence got the hell out as fast as their legs would carry them the moment a better alternative became available. They are all now members of this forum, the instant success of which speaks for itself. There is no "split". The main event has relocated to LOM - lock, stock and two smoking barrels. Which is where it's going to stay.
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Chas Jago
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Post by Chas Jago on Apr 22, 2009 10:42:41 GMT 10
An interesting situation then, thank you for bringing it to our attention.
While we are members of both forums, we will however conduct ourselves with restraint while visiting said forum. Until we understand the situation and opinions of both forum members.
May we ask which nations are represented here?
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George
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Post by George on Apr 22, 2009 12:34:02 GMT 10
which nations are represented here? A majority of the important physical ones and a number of non-physical ones. Talossa has a gaggle of citizens here. Molossia, TorHavn, Domain & Realms, Reunion, Dewaco Estates, Atlantium, Jirmania, the Formori as well as numerous others who I'm sure will be happy to introduce themselves, all have members registered here.
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Post by shadowdarkfyre on Apr 22, 2009 14:29:32 GMT 10
An interesting situation then, thank you for bringing it to our attention. While we are members of both forums, we will however conduct ourselves with restraint while visiting said forum. Until we understand the situation and opinions of both forum members. May we ask which nations are represented here? Greetings, Chasj... It has been a long while since I've seen Alteria active... It's good to see such nations as yours, TorHavn, and even the Kingdom of Talossa, back in activity. The Domain's still alive, after seven years, and still going strong. Welcome.
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Chas Jago
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Post by Chas Jago on Apr 22, 2009 14:49:51 GMT 10
Greetings, its good to actually be back, its been so long since I have walked through the halls of Micronationalism, but I thought it time to come back.
While Alteria is returning its without alot of its former citizens, which is a pity, but we plan to grow back to become the nation we once were.
While some of the names are unknown to us, we do however recognize afew names. and its good to see our old friends such as TorHavn still around.
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George
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Post by George on Apr 22, 2009 15:09:10 GMT 10
...its been so long since I have walked through the halls of Micronationalism... The halls of micronationalism? Is that like the hall of the elven king? ...or the crawlspace of the dwarf lords? Corridor of micronationalism, perhaps.
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Chas Jago
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Post by Chas Jago on Apr 22, 2009 17:27:12 GMT 10
Good point there sir and how would one describe said halls in the arena of digital cyber space
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George
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Post by George on Apr 22, 2009 18:23:52 GMT 10
how would one describe said halls in the arena of digital cyber space With some sort of 3-D computer-generated walk-through, maybe?
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Peter
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Post by Peter on Apr 22, 2009 21:27:00 GMT 10
Hello Chas, I really do not want to start hassles right now so if I can give you a piece of advice, you might want to acquaint yourself with various details of the conflict before arriving at conclusions. While George made some valid points, my view is that the problem was more complex and that there was an unlucky correspondence of conditions and stupidity rather than a direct attack. For example, I wouldn't say that there was any kind of attacking by proxies. As far as I know, there simply were no such capacities for this kind of plan. My impression is that the undermining was long-term and I regret to say that some people who are presenting their morals at these days were closer to the core of the instability than they are willing to confess. Their non-constructive position did not help at all. Quite the opposite, they accelerated the fall of the forum, and they did so rather consciously than by accident. I don't think it would be wise to dissect all that again and at this place and I am really, really tired of it, I just needed to present my different opinion. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to contact me via various channels (see my profile). Good luck! Respectfully,
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Post by C. M. Siervicül on Apr 23, 2009 1:47:47 GMT 10
It's good to see such nations as yours, TorHavn, and even the Kingdom of Talossa, back in activity. The Kingdom of Talossa was never inactive, it has just had no interest in interacting with other micronations for about 11 years now. It still has no interest in official interactions, as far as I can tell, but a couple of its citizens (like me) visit various micronational fora from time to time.
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Chas Jago
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Post by Chas Jago on Apr 23, 2009 5:38:02 GMT 10
Hello Chas, I really do not want to start hassles right now so if I can give you a piece of advice, you might want to acquaint yourself with various details of the conflict before arriving at conclusions. While George made some valid points, my view is that the problem was more complex and that there was an unlucky correspondence of conditions and stupidity rather than a direct attack. For example, I wouldn't say that there was any kind of attacking by proxies. As far as I know, there simply were no such capacities for this kind of plan. My impression is that the undermining was long-term and I regret to say that some people who are presenting their morals at these days were closer to the core of the instability than they are willing to confess. Their non-constructive position did not help at all. Quite the opposite, they accelerated the fall of the forum, and they did so rather consciously than by accident. I don't think it would be wise to dissect all that again and at this place and I am really, really tired of it, I just needed to present my different opinion. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to contact me via various channels (see my profile). Good luck! Respectfully, Morning Sir, I am one not to take only one side of the story and run with it. I am currently looking through threads and information available to understand the situation. Both myself and Alteria come from a neutral point of view, and usually stay that way, as it best suits Alteria's neutral stance in the community.
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George
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Post by George on Apr 23, 2009 9:37:20 GMT 10
What Petr is trying to say in a roundabout way is that he believes me to be personally responsible for the death of the other forum, because I wouldn't lower my intellectual standards by being nice to the tiny minority of idiots who were encouraged by the former forum owner to run riot there, as part of his longstanding personal vendetta against me.
In reality my departure was merely a symptom of a wide-ranging systemic failure, not its cause.
The other forum failed because it used chaos, mendacity and double-standards as its guiding principles.
Its complete collapse followed my departure by almost a month. I played no part in that little operatic fiasco at all; I didn't need to.
This forum is based on principles of order, rationality and mutual respect - which is why it is now the primary focus of serious online micronational discussion, and will remain so.
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Chas Jago
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Post by Chas Jago on Apr 23, 2009 10:05:28 GMT 10
OK so that I can understand the current situation better, what you are saying is that a small argument that started between members of the forum was allowed to grow into a heated exchange of opinions that has eventually ended up with many members leaving the aforementioned forum for this forum.
So may I ask why the forum administrators and moderators did not close this issue down before it escalated to the point it did?
From what I have read so far from varying sites and forums, it looks like an issue has arisen that has not been handled properly by the forum management which has lead to an exodus from one forum to another. Is this correct?
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George
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Post by George on Apr 23, 2009 10:44:33 GMT 10
...an issue has arisen that has not been handled properly by the forum management which has lead to an exodus from one forum to another. Is this correct? There was no management and no centralised capacity for decision-making because the person who originally set up the failed forum was ideologically opposed to it. They referred to this approach as "consensus". In reality it was pure, unmitigated chaos. It was a recipe for disaster - and disaster is exactly what ensued. We are not making that mistake here.
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Chas Jago
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Post by Chas Jago on Apr 23, 2009 17:03:41 GMT 10
...an issue has arisen that has not been handled properly by the forum management which has lead to an exodus from one forum to another. Is this correct? There was no management and no centralised capacity for decision-making because the person who originally set up the failed forum was ideologically opposed to it. They referred to this approach as "consensus". In reality it was pure, unmitigated chaos. It was a recipe for disaster - and disaster is exactly what ensued. We are not making that mistake here. The internet and this type of approach is a pointless endeavor. With the moderators and admins to keep a forum civil it soon drops into lawlessness.
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Peter
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Post by Peter on Apr 23, 2009 20:35:22 GMT 10
What Petr is trying to say in a roundabout way is that he believes me to be personally responsible for the death of the other forum, (...) In reality my departure was merely a symptom of a wide-ranging systemic failure, not its cause. (...) With this kind of position, I wouldn't be here. I completely agree with you that the primary reason of the fall was the inherited genetic disease. I was just trying to say that the approach of some respected members did not help at all, yes, including you. We were solving this in private communication, I hoped my position was clear. I believe that if the things you said to me are true, you should have acted according to noblesse oblige instead of endless attacking many other members. This lowered the standard and became one of the sources of problem (yes, not the primary one). At any case, with your departure, you suddenly started to act as a completely different person, even to people you had heckled so much the night before, so I guess we can start discussing micronationalism at last and close the previous chapter. Everyone interested in MNeu history can browse through the archives, I think they make my (and partly George's) position substantiated.
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Chas Jago
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Post by Chas Jago on Apr 24, 2009 5:05:17 GMT 10
so I guess we can start discussing micronationalism at last and close the previous chapter. Everyone interested in MNeu history can browse through the archives, I think they make my (and partly George's) position substantiated. Yes I tend to agree, it is time to move on and return to the reason for the existance of this forum, Microantionalism.
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Post by D N Vercri on Apr 24, 2009 6:12:24 GMT 10
Yes, I hope we can finally return to discussing micronational issues. On a sidenote, "micro-ant-ionalism" is truly a gem of a typo.
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Apr 24, 2009 6:14:11 GMT 10
(this was me, I forgot to log in before writing a message)
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Chas Jago
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Post by Chas Jago on Apr 24, 2009 6:49:08 GMT 10
lol true, I didnt notice, Must make a note of this typo hehe
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George
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Post by George on Apr 24, 2009 7:11:58 GMT 10
We were solving this in private communication, I hoped my position was clear. Likewise, mine. I believe that if the things you said to me are true, you should have acted according to noblesse oblige instead of endless attacking many other members. This lowered the standard and became one of the sources of problem (yes, not the primary one). As I've stated many times before, I will not now and not ever accept the argument that the appeasement of fools and idiots is a good idea. It is their presence which lowers the tone of debate in any forum - not the fact that rational people are grossly offended by their stupidity, and choose to make their feelings known. The solution to this problem is either their removal from the debate entirely, or a situation where they know they can make a contribution - while being very aware of the fact that if they attack others they will be held accountable for it. That outcome has been achieved here - and as you can see we now have a flourishing forum filled with rational, civil, comprehensible discussion on many topics of interest to many people. And, for the record, I did not "attack many other members". By my count I ridiculed a total of 4 people over a period of 12 months at the other forum; they all richly deserved it - particularly the one who publicly threatened to murder me on numerous occasions, the one who actively supported him, and the creepy, largely incoherent 60-something year-old man pretending to be a 10 year old child who arrived shortly before my departure. At any case, with your departure, you suddenly started to act as a completely different person, even to people you had heckled so much the night before. I have no idea what you mean by this cryptic comment. My behavior here is no different from anywhere else; of course, there are no troublemakers here, so there's been no need for me to express any opinions on that subject. Should we ever be faced with that problem I and the other admins will certainly not hesitate to take the necessary corrective action to nip it in the bud. Now... let's get back to discussing what we're actually here to discuss.
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Chas Jago
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Post by Chas Jago on Apr 24, 2009 7:37:58 GMT 10
Come on people lets not dive into the depths of Argument again, time to move on and leave old wounds to heal over.
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Post by shadowdarkfyre on Apr 24, 2009 13:31:52 GMT 10
We were solving this in private communication, I hoped my position was clear. Likewise, mine. As I've stated many times before, I will not now and not ever accept the argument that the appeasement of fools and idiots is a good idea. It is their presence which lowers the tone of debate in any forum - not the fact that rational people are grossly offended by their stupidity, and choose to make their feelings known. The solution to this problem is either their removal from the debate entirely, or a situation where they know they can make a contribution - while being very aware of the fact that if they attack others they will be held accountable for it. That outcome has been achieved here - and as you can see we now have a flourishing forum filled with rational, civil, comprehensible discussion on many topics of interest to many people. And, for the record, I did not "attack many other members". By my count I ridiculed a total of 4 people over a period of 12 months at the other forum; they all richly deserved it - particularly the one who publicly threatened to murder me on numerous occasions, the one who actively supported him, and the creepy, largely incoherent 60-something year-old man pretending to be a 10 year old child who arrived shortly before my departure. At any case, with your departure, you suddenly started to act as a completely different person, even to people you had heckled so much the night before. I have no idea what you mean by this cryptic comment. My behavior here is no different from anywhere else; of course, there are no troublemakers here, so there's been no need for me to express any opinions on that subject. Should we ever be faced with that problem I and the other admins will certainly not hesitate to take the necessary corrective action to nip it in the bud. Now... let's get back to discussing what we're actually here to discuss. To make it perfectly clear, lets us ALL make perfectly sure that there are no more ego trips here. I pulled Domani representation from the former forum because of what I saw there. Admins were too quick to "nip in the bud" because something they personally didnae' like. I would expect that from children. Not adults. I will trust that no such will happen again here,... though it seems to me now that such could be a possibility. Sad, when this place has the promise of egos being jettisoned. Chasj's advice should be heeded. Let's not be so quick to speak of What we'll do if someone "steps out of line". The ONLY function of the admins is to help keep the peace. Nothing more. Nothing less. I trust that none of us will forget this. Especially since all nations represented here - no matter what type they are - are considered soverign: whether recognized or not. In the former forum, there was fault on both sides. I myself said as much. Let's not have that history repeat itself here. What is done is done. Instead of stagnating on the past, think on the future. Let that chapter remain closed. We have all had enough of it. Dream Well.
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claudre
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Post by claudre on Apr 27, 2009 15:22:02 GMT 10
Chas,
Welcome, my dear friend and ally!
I am very happy to see you here.
Yours,
Claudio de Castro
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George
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Post by George on Apr 29, 2009 15:19:19 GMT 10
Just so we're all on the same page on this subject...
The success of this forum is based on the fact that order, rationality, objectivity and mutual respect are its founding principles.
Should anyone ever unilaterally decide to disrupt the general equanimity here - whether via the instigation of flame wars, the propagation of character attacks, the excessive/inappropriate use of profanity, appeals to hysteria and offensive irrationality, the advocacy of criminal acts or other inappropriate behaviour - they will first be privately counselled to moderate their behaviour.
If that fails to have the desired effect within a 24-48 hour timeframe, more direct corrective action will be taken. This may initially include temporary (ie a few days) account blocking.
So, to reiterate: There is zero tolerance of, and no capacity for engaging in ongoing disruption at this forum.
I would personally rather leave such things unspoken, but its a simple fact of existence is that in an open public forum with no membership pre-screening, there is little likelihood that common sense, common decency and basic maturity will always be naturally equally apportioned among the members.
As such its better to be safe than sorry by clearly articulating a few basic universal boundaries at the outset, rather than saying nothing, hoping for the best and having to deal with the inevitable resulting chaos.
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Post by shadowdarkfyre on May 1, 2009 11:52:50 GMT 10
Just so we're all on the same page on this subject... The success of this forum is based on the fact that order, rationality, objectivity and mutual respect are its founding principles. Should anyone ever unilaterally decide to disrupt the general equanimity here - whether via the instigation of flame wars, the propagation of character attacks, the excessive/inappropriate use of profanity, appeals to hysteria and offensive irrationality, the advocacy of criminal acts or other inappropriate behaviour - they will first be privately counselled to moderate their behaviour. If that fails to have the desired effect within a 24-48 hour timeframe, more direct corrective action will be taken. This may initially include temporary (ie a few days) account blocking. So, to reiterate: There is zero tolerance of, and no capacity for engaging in ongoing disruption at this forum. I would personally rather leave such things unspoken, but its a simple fact of existence is that in an open public forum with no membership pre-screening, there is little likelihood that common sense, common decency and basic maturity will always be naturally equally apportioned among the members. As such its better to be safe than sorry by clearly articulating a few basic universal boundaries at the outset, rather than saying nothing, hoping for the best and having to deal with the inevitable resulting chaos. That includes making sure that nothing is done to bait or provoke anyone into any arguments, flamewars, or other disruptive behavior. As an old saying goes, "it takes two to tango". In short, a long explanation of what will be done as punishment wasnae' needed. It is never how much you have, but what you do with what you've been given. All that needed to be said is that "There is a policy for peaceable conversation and interaction with the member nations here within this form. Any disruptions of the peace will be dealt with accordingly." Anything more than that comes as arrogant and high nose. Such an impression is hardly indicative of an example of a cooperative and peaceful personality that one wants to put forth.
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