George
Global Administrator
Head Honcho and Spangle of the Cosmos
Posts: 2,997
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Post by George on May 9, 2009 8:06:00 GMT 10
I would like to put forward the following as proposed terms & conditions governing the use of this forum. Once there is general agreement, the T&C's will be published as part of the forum welcome message. It is my intention that by broadly outlining the nature of the forum, explicitly defining inappropriate behaviour, detailing the consequences that will follow from attempting to engage in it, and clearly outlining the responsibilities and powers of the forum administrators and owner, we will never be troubled by the sort of ineptitude, chaos, disrespect and megalomania which we have all witnessed elsewhere. Comments and feedback are welcome.
The List of Micronations Forum and its associated website and wiki are the property of George Cruickshank, who serves as Global Administrator and is the ultimate arbiter of all policy, content and operational matters. Membership of the List of Micronations Forum is a priviledge, not a right; that priviledge is extended to all interested parties, in good faith, by the forum owner - but it may likewise be withdrawn for serious breaches of trust or for failure to comply with the forum's published policies, terms and conditions. The List of Micronations Forum is administered as a meritocracy, not a democracy. While the opinions of all are accorded respect and consideration, members do not have an "equal vote" with regards operational or policy matters; the opinions of long-term, active, positive contributors to the forum will always carry more weight than the opinions of new arrivals or inactive long-term members. At his sole discretion, the Global Administrator may invite any active, responsible forum member aged 18 years or over to assist in the management of the forum in the role of Moderator. Moderators have the following powers: (i) The ability to modify or delete any post by any member (ii) The ability to modify, temporarily suspend or permanently delete member accounts As at 9 May 2009, the following forum members are Moderators: - claudere
- kvz
- Rex TorHavn
- shadowdarkfyre
Moderators are charged with helping to maintain the professionalism, respectability, equanimity and civility of the forum, by ensuring that all registered members understand and adhere to the following terms and conditions: Terms and Conditions:1. Respecting its status as the common language of the majority of the membership of the forum, posts should be in comprehensible English. Non-English language posts are permissible if an accompanying English translation is provided. 2. Posts should respect the intelligence of all forum members and anyone else who might view them by adhering to the principles of dialectic, rhetoric and logic that form the foundation of all civil discourse in all languages. 3. Pornographic posts, or posts containing pornographic images or text, or links to pornographic images or text are not permitted. 4. Posts encouraging or advocating hatred based on race, culture, gender, sexual orientation, disability, religion or political preference are not permitted. 5. Posts that encourage, advocate or celebrate acts of criminality (as defined by the legal statutes and precedents of the Commonwealth of Australia) are not permitted. NB: this condition does not mean that legitimate discussion concerning criminal acts cannot take place; it is merely the explicit advocacy of such acts which is proscribed. 6. Posts that use obscenity, vulgarity and profanity to explicitly attack others are not permitted. However, obscenity, vulgarity and profanity may be used in moderation, in the context of good-natured humour or gentle raillery, or to emphasise pertinent points of discussion. 7. Posts involving implicit or explicit threats of violence are not permitted. 8. Posts that reveal personal information about forum members that is not already publicly accessible via the internet are not permitted. 9. Posts that are defined as spam, or which in their entirety constitute off-topic commercial advertising are not permitted. 10. Inappropriate posts, as defined above, will be deleted without comment by the Global Administrator or Moderators, at their sole discretion. For a first offense, the member responsible for publishing an inappropriate post will be counselled to modify their behavior via email and private message. Should that member post a second inappropriate post subsequent to being counselled, their access to the forum will be suspended for a period of 72 hours. Should a third inappropriate post be published by that member, their forum access will be terminated.
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Chas Jago
Full Member
Prime Minister
Posts: 137
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Post by Chas Jago on May 9, 2009 9:09:36 GMT 10
A fine document, I will get back to you if we(myself & Alteria) have any comments
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George
Global Administrator
Head Honcho and Spangle of the Cosmos
Posts: 2,997
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Post by George on May 9, 2009 9:38:14 GMT 10
Thanks.
I've rearranged and expanded a couple of the opening paragraphs, to introduce further clarity into the proposal.
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on May 9, 2009 11:02:46 GMT 10
Sorry, a loud "no" to point 1.
I'm writing messages in English for the convenience of the audience, but I can't guarantee the comprehensibility of these messages, as I'm not a native speaker of the English language.
Also, should I ever feel like posting messages in any other language, I don't like to be forced to provide English translations.
English may be the de-facto number one language on this planet (debate-ably), but I will never sign a document that enacts this status quo.
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George
Global Administrator
Head Honcho and Spangle of the Cosmos
Posts: 2,997
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Post by George on May 9, 2009 12:26:33 GMT 10
The first part of point 1 is not negotiable.
However, its purpose is not to discriminate against members who don't speak English as a first language, but to remind all forum members of the importance of showing basic respect to those with whom they are seeking to communicate, by taking the trouble to ensure that their comments can be relatively easily interpreted.
I am not at all concerned by the fact that members who don't speak English as their primary language may not always express themselves using perfect grammar or vocabulary.
The posting of messages (mostly by native English speakers) that were semi-coherent, largely nonsensical, or complete raving gibberish obviously written under the influence of drugs or alcohol was a recurring problem - and a source of much confusion and unneccessary aggravation - at the failed micronation forum.
To my mind such behaviour is not only intellectually lazy and inconsiderate, but downright offensive. It will simply not be tolerated in any forum over which I have oversight, and therefore it's necessary to ensure this is detailed as part of the terms & conditions.
I'm open to dropping the second half of point 1, as I don't see much likelihood that people are suddenly going to start posting dozens of messages in languages other than English, to the extent that this might lead to the balkanization of the forum - which was my main concern.
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Chas Jago
Full Member
Prime Minister
Posts: 137
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Post by Chas Jago on May 9, 2009 21:21:09 GMT 10
While only 1 of the 2 languages I speak are used here, I have no issue with using English as the main language in this forum, however the issue is non-english posts needing a translation, while supported personally, has been a thorn in the side of Micronational forums for as long as I can remember. So I would tend to agree to leaving the second half of Point 1 out.
I personally stay clear of threads that I can not understand language wise, and as I have found in the past translation software is not worth the effort.
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George
Global Administrator
Head Honcho and Spangle of the Cosmos
Posts: 2,997
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Post by George on May 10, 2009 9:07:59 GMT 10
I personally stay clear of threads that I can not understand language wise, and as I have found in the past translation software is not worth the effort. I agree entirely. If I don't understand it, I ignore it. I personally believe that the purpose of a public forum like this is to encourage communication between people who might not otherwise be able to communicate in person, due to their residing in many different countries and speaking many different languages. If everyone were to come here and post in their native language, that would rather tend to defeat the purpose of having a forum in the first place.
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Chas Jago
Full Member
Prime Minister
Posts: 137
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Post by Chas Jago on May 10, 2009 12:43:06 GMT 10
Agree and with most people I would assume that if they were coming in here for a specific purpose then they would generally ask in a language that others here could understand anyway.
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Witizen
New Member
www.Wirtland.com, www.Wirtland.net
Posts: 26
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Post by Witizen on May 10, 2009 18:05:34 GMT 10
I don't find anything especially objectionable in the proposed terms. Anyway, I am more interested in the content, and look forward to fruitful discussions.
Cris
Wirtland
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Post by Kior Olfaa on May 10, 2009 22:58:50 GMT 10
The wording is fine with me, but maybe mockery or black humor intended as an insult should also be included.
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George
Global Administrator
Head Honcho and Spangle of the Cosmos
Posts: 2,997
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Post by George on May 11, 2009 3:21:01 GMT 10
Good idea. Thanks for the suggestion.
As far as I'm concerned, raillery, mockery, ridicule and dry or black humour - when used in the right circumstances - are all valid discussion techniques.
Indeed, to my mind, the injection of such into a discussion is generally to be preferred over serious, dry, rambling, declamatory commentary, as one typically ends up with far more interesting, longlasting discussions.
However, they should be applied with care, as there will always be some people in any group who lack a sense of humour, the intellectual firepower, or the general knowledge to understand the subtext of what's actually being said through indirect or referential techniques.
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Post by C Carlüs Xheráltsëfiglheu on May 12, 2009 5:51:55 GMT 10
I don't have any problems with the proposed terms and conditions, although I can see from where Dieter is coming...
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Post by cadan on May 12, 2009 8:06:33 GMT 10
At his sole discretion, the Global Administrator may invite any active, responsible forum member aged 18 years or over to assist in the management of the forum in the role of Moderator. I strongly disagree with this. People are obsessed with putting age limits on everything; my view is that there are many people under the age of eighteen who are perfectly capable of carrying out the required duties in a responsible manner, and saying to them "No you are not allowed because you are only 17½" is, in my opinion, unfair. Therefore, I suggest the words "aged 18 years or over" are omited.
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George
Global Administrator
Head Honcho and Spangle of the Cosmos
Posts: 2,997
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Post by George on May 12, 2009 8:14:34 GMT 10
Your comments are noted, however there are already several other micronation forums managed by children.
This is a serious forum, run by adults - the legal age for which in Australia is 18 years.
While young people are welcome to become members and contributors to the forum, I will not be inviting anyone under the legal age to become a moderator here, under any circumstances.
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Post by cadan on May 12, 2009 8:24:28 GMT 10
Your comments are noted, however there are already several other micronation forums managed by children. This is a serious forum, run by adults - the legal age for which in Australia is 18 years. While young people are welcome to become members and contributors to the forum, I will not be inviting anyone under the legal age to become a moderator here, under any circumstances. Why does the legal age in Australia suddenly matter? This forum is hosted by ProBoards, which is based in Texas - there, there is no legal age for being a moderator of a webforum. Is there even one in Australia? I also disagree with your point that to be serious, you must be an adult; there are plenty of "children" who are much more mature and capable of running a forum than some adults. It should be based on personal capabilities, not age.
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George
Global Administrator
Head Honcho and Spangle of the Cosmos
Posts: 2,997
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Post by George on May 12, 2009 8:34:04 GMT 10
The legal age of Australia matters, because that is where the owner of this forum resides.
In my opinion, the experience at other forums has clearly demonstrated that children and adolescents in general lack the sound judgement, life experience, intellectual capacity and respect for others to successfully manage a forum of this nature.
And in this forum, my opinion is law.
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Post by cadan on May 12, 2009 8:39:30 GMT 10
The legal age of Australia matters, because that is where the owner of this forum resides. In my opinion, the experience at other forums has clearly demonstrated that children and adolescents in general lack the sound judgement, life experience, intellectual capacity and respect for others to successfully manage a forum of this nature. And in this forum, my opinion is law. That may be in your experience, but that does not mean that *every* single person under the age of eighteen is uncapable, and are handed capability along with the keys to their new car on their eighteenth birthday. Might I make a suggestion; people may like fora more if the owner actually listens to members instead of enforcing their rules; that has been the downfall of many fora (including two I have participated in recently). Trust me, people like it when they have a voice (and they like it even more if someone listens to them).
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George
Global Administrator
Head Honcho and Spangle of the Cosmos
Posts: 2,997
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Post by George on May 12, 2009 8:44:39 GMT 10
Thanks for your comments.
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Chas Jago
Full Member
Prime Minister
Posts: 137
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Post by Chas Jago on May 12, 2009 12:05:55 GMT 10
"Removes Micronational Hat" Actually under normal working conditions, forums and websites are governed by the location of the server it is based on, not by where the owner is or where the website is designed to operate. If the server is in the US then everything that runs on that server is based under US law, unless otherwise stated by the terms & conditions of the hosting account or clearly stated on the website. This has become a major issue in many countries, where large scale hosting accounts are in one country but designed to operate across borders. Now for hosted systems like Proboard, check the terms and conditions of the account you signed up for, you may find that it is set to a particular jurisdiction. Now looking at there terms and conditions its easy to see that: www.proboards.com/tos.html
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Post by shadowdarkfyre on May 12, 2009 15:04:52 GMT 10
The legal age of Australia matters, because that is where the owner of this forum resides. In my opinion, the experience at other forums has clearly demonstrated that children and adolescents in general lack the sound judgement, life experience, intellectual capacity and respect for others to successfully manage a forum of this nature. And in this forum, my opinion is law. *makes a decision*
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George
Global Administrator
Head Honcho and Spangle of the Cosmos
Posts: 2,997
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Post by George on May 12, 2009 16:20:09 GMT 10
Actually under normal working conditions, forums and websites are governed by the location of the server it is based on, not by where the owner is or where the website is designed to operate. I'm well aware of that fact. As forum owner I have taken a decision to place a minimum age requirement on moderators - not because there is a legal requirement to do so, but because children and adolescents are insufficiently mature to fulfill the role. As I reside in Australia I have chosen to apply the legal age of majority that applies here, because it's convenient, and because it's similar to the age of majority in most of the countries in which forum members live.
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George
Global Administrator
Head Honcho and Spangle of the Cosmos
Posts: 2,997
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Post by George on May 13, 2009 9:46:58 GMT 10
Thanks to everyone who's shared their opinions on this topic.
At this stage it appears that there's general agreement concerning the proposed terms & conditions - minus any requirement to make posts in English.
I'm heading off to Aurora for another 6 days tomorrow morning; if anyone has any further comments to make on this subject please add them in my absence.
If there are no serious objections, I will formally publish the T&C's upon my return mid next week.
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Post by cadan on May 13, 2009 18:18:59 GMT 10
The legal age of Australia matters, because that is where the owner of this forum resides. In my opinion, the experience at other forums has clearly demonstrated that children and adolescents in general lack the sound judgement, life experience, intellectual capacity and respect for others to successfully manage a forum of this nature. And in this forum, my opinion is law. *makes a decision* What decision have you made?
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Post by cadan on May 18, 2009 21:04:05 GMT 10
I'm not extremely happy about the fact that my views and opinions as a member seem to be completely ignored. Surely a community such as this would listen to everyone?
If you refuse to listen then you really don't deserve to be running a forum.
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Post by C Carlüs Xheráltsëfiglheu on May 19, 2009 1:07:32 GMT 10
It really isn't up to you to decide who runs this forum, considering that you only joined to spite George in the first place... Anyhow, seems as George brought this forum into being, it's the members that decided to join, they weren't forced to join.
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Post by cadan on May 19, 2009 1:28:06 GMT 10
I did not join to "spite George"; I joined to keep a micronational presence on behalf of and representing Apiya.
I'm unhappy that George doesn't seem to care about the members of his forum that he isn't 'best pals' with. I think that a responsible forum-owner would listen to all of their members and act on their best interests, and I'm sure the majority would agree with me.
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Post by C Carlüs Xheráltsëfiglheu on May 19, 2009 2:21:35 GMT 10
Recalling your first post here, it wasn't on behalf of Apiya, it was infact to spite George...
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Post by cadan on May 19, 2009 2:53:32 GMT 10
Oh right, so every time I do something, I have to state my intentions IN BOLD CAPITALS SO ALL THE NOSEY PEOPLE WITH LONG NECKS CAN SEE?
Aah, policed state, that's what they call it...
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Post by Eoin Ursüm on May 19, 2009 3:37:01 GMT 10
I believe that the 'responsible owner of a forum' reserves the right to set out rules, to change them as zie pleases and to ignore those zie wishes to ignore. A forum is in no way a state, nor are you denied basic human rights. Those who join this forum willingly submit themselves beneath the guidelines of that forum, and it would be impolite to say that they are unfair, just because they do not propose a wishy-washy, consensus-based system (which may also work). E BTW, I apologize for the pointless bickering among former Tchairians which has nearly deflowered a so-far unflamed forum.
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Post by cadan on May 19, 2009 7:41:51 GMT 10
It doesn't look like Mr Cadan ap Tomos wishes to be a part of "LOM" anymore.
Good day to you all.
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