George
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Post by George on Jun 6, 2011 19:30:46 GMT 10
My comments hereunder refer to the initial post at this blog: themicronations.blogspot.com I. Too many micronations and not enough micronational establishments Your assertion simply does not make sense. How can there possibly be more umbrella organisations than members thereof? How can there be more supranational organisations than sovereign states? Why on earth would you want there to be anyway? II. Micronations with no economic backbone The number of micronations over the past 150 years that have ever generated any substantive economic activity can be counted on 2 fingers. They are Hutt River and Seborga - and they both generate most of their revenue through tourism. This suggests that it is a truism to assert that unless a micronation can develop itself as a tourism destination - by physically occupying a piece of physical geography and building purpose-specific structures there that other people will be interested enough to visit, it has exactly zero potential for economic activity. III. Incorrect priorities and poor understanding of the potential in micronationalism activity This I agree with. As I've pointed out many times before, most micronationalists have a completely mistaken notion of what actually constitutes the majority of the micronational spectrum. What it is most certainly NOT made up of is "simulationists" vs "secessionists". In fact, a very significant majority of the most successful widely-known micronations are whimsical, eccentric art projects whose raison d'etre has nothing to do with "secession" and everything to do with subversive socio-political commentary. Ladonia and Elgaland-Vargaland, for example, are known internationally, and have many thousands of members. IV. Too much fighting, not enough business I would argue that as far as adolescent micronationalists are concerned, acts of self-aggrandizement by intelligent people with low self esteem is in almost all cases the primary inspiration and motivation.
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Post by themicronations on Jun 6, 2011 22:56:01 GMT 10
Your assertion simply does not make sense. How can there possibly be more umbrella organisations than members thereof? How can there be more supranational organisations than sovereign states? Why on earth would you want there to be anyway? I was stating that there needs to be organizations within each micronation such as businesses, social groups, leagues etc. I was not referring necessarily to supranational establishments. What I mean is that micronations or groups/individuals within the micronations need to be producing products or services to generate economic life whether they use macro currency, micro currency, or no currency. there are other options than what other micronations have been doing in the last 30 years. i think 2 micronations is a bit low i know that New Prussia generated quite a bit of income in its short existence, though i wasn't referring to macro income to begin with.
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Post by rareearth on Jun 7, 2011 1:41:13 GMT 10
Referring to this article: Faults of the Micronational CommunityCorrect, except you are seeing the symptoms of the disease, and ignoring the fundamental causes. There are too many micronations, that is true, but there are also too many spermatozoa in nature, and too few ova. I suppose that is why so few girls/women participate, and too many boys/men. Nature produces many attempts to create a child (a metaphor for the many phony micronations out there which are neither Fifth nor Sixth World entities), and too few opportunities to actually conceive a child (a metaphor for a real micronation, the one of Fifth or Sixth World variety). There are certainly many pretentious egos out there, but most of them lack the resources to develop a real micronation, which is not made of websites or even land, but PEOPLE. The reason there aren't more micronational organisations than micronations themselves, is because the (phony) micronations, the spermatozoa, are too many, but these will never come into contact with an ovum, and become at least micronational potential, so imagine how likely it is for these (phony) micronations to grow arms, and legs, and organs, ie micronational organisations. Read the answer to problem I. Correct. Too much macho will to create a state, in order to be the boss of everyone, including people who would never want to become your neighbours, and too little charm to attract the PEOPLE a nation needs before anything else. Like spermatozoa... They all want to become children, but only a minority of them actually will. Like spermatozoa... They are not even children (nations), and yet they want to believe they are all men (states). As they say in Italian, " Tra il dire e il fare, c'è di mezzo il mare." Too much pseudo-state, and not enough nation. By the way, with all these good thoughts you should be a micronational professional.
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Peter
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Post by Peter on Jun 7, 2011 6:32:28 GMT 10
First of all, thank you for your coherent and cohesive text which deals with actual ideas. (That's right, it is not that common in this street.)
Second, this debate resembles the clash of paradigmata which occured in several scientific fields in the course of the 20th century. The problem is that you two, George and Themicronations, actually do not addreess the same phenomenon:
George's approach is realistic (what is a micronation in this world and why is it interesting?), whereas yours is idealistic (how can be something like micronationalism used for creating and maintaining an alternative world system?). It could be that you are a genial visionary, that's cool. Nevertheless, so far, history has always supported the notions of realism (in various fields). :-)
I definitely do not want to sound rude / big-headed, I just think this is an interesting and profound question.
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George
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Post by George on Jun 7, 2011 7:28:18 GMT 10
i know that New Prussia generated quite a bit of income in its short existence... ...and your evidence for this is ?
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George
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Post by George on Jun 7, 2011 7:38:46 GMT 10
Your assertion simply does not make sense. How can there possibly be more umbrella organisations than members thereof? How can there be more supranational organisations than sovereign states? Why on earth would you want there to be anyway? I was stating that there needs to be organizations within each micronation such as businesses, social groups, leagues etc. I was not referring necessarily to supranational establishments. I would argue that this exactly what micronations do NOT need - at least not those that intend to be successful. While it may be "fun" to create an entire hierarchy of cascading organisations, departments and sub-entities, so your friends can be appointed to roles with grand-sounding titles, and create a whole mountain of seeming "activity" as they squabble amongst themselves to mark out their territory, this approach is distinctly counter-productive to actual success - however it is measured. Small groups of people that succeed - in the real world, in any field - do so because of their singular focus. The moment any organisation's energy becomes distributed and de-focused, it dooms itself to failure. Unless a micronation has tens of thousands of members, anything other than the most rudimentary organisational structure is entirely unneccessary.
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Post by sogoln on Jun 7, 2011 8:15:41 GMT 10
Unless a micronation has tens of thousands of members, anything other than the most rudimentary organisational structure is entirely unneccessary. Amen to that!
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Post by themicronations on Jun 7, 2011 8:56:03 GMT 10
This is definitely true. So what can we do about it in your opinion? thanks, i will look into it.
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Post by themicronations on Jun 7, 2011 8:59:48 GMT 10
George's approach is realistic (what is a micronation in this world and why is it interesting?), whereas yours is idealistic (how can be something like micronationalism used for creating and maintaining an alternative world system?). yeah, i see what you are saying. Though I am all for real world activity I think right now a lot of potential lies in the alternative world you speak of, and its not being exploited to any noticeable degree.
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Post by themicronations on Jun 7, 2011 9:02:23 GMT 10
...and your evidence for this is ? I knew some of the people in it and they mentioned it a few times. They also produced and sometimes sold things that they couldn't afford from their own budgets.
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Post by themicronations on Jun 7, 2011 9:23:08 GMT 10
I would argue that this exactly what micronations do NOT need - at least not those that intend to be successful. Not sure how you think a state can be developed without these types of groups. Even a nation is going to need something behind it, at least rudimentary culture, and this requires organizations. again this is not what i'm talking about. I am referring to private or governmental organizations that serve actual functions. their purpose is to offer actual services or products, not assign positions and do nothing for entertainment purposes. Small groups of people (5 to 12) need rudimentary organization (example: squads in the military or employees of a restaurant), tens of thousands of people need much more complex organization, this is small city or large corporation level. But yeah, if a micronation has 10,000 of people who just "belong" to a micronation and serve no other purpose, then i agree.
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George
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Post by George on Jun 7, 2011 11:46:41 GMT 10
I would argue that this exactly what micronations do NOT need - at least not those that intend to be successful. Not sure how you think a state can be developed without these types of groups. Even a nation is going to need something behind it, at least rudimentary culture, and this requires organizations. again this is not what i'm talking about. I am referring to private or governmental organizations that serve actual functions. their purpose is to offer actual services or products, not assign positions and do nothing for entertainment purposes. Small groups of people (5 to 12) need rudimentary organization (example: squads in the military or employees of a restaurant), tens of thousands of people need much more complex organization, this is small city or large corporation level. But yeah, if a micronation has 10,000 of people who just "belong" to a micronation and serve no other purpose, then i agree. I'm not speaking from some theoretical basis; I'm speaking from personal experience as someone who has established and maintained a successful micronation over a period of three decades, been a board member of a large public radio station, a committee member of a number of community-based heritage conservation groups, and an employee of various large public companies over a period of more than two decades. Atlantium has in excess of 1500 Citizens, and an Administration made up of about 20 people. You have to ask yourself if a micronation can achieve measurable success over such a long period of time with such a disparate ratio of members to administrators, why does a micronation with barely a dozen members (which is the vast majority of them) require a hierarchy so complex that each member ends up with three or four different titles (which is also most of them).
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Post by themicronations on Jun 7, 2011 13:17:36 GMT 10
You have to ask yourself if a micronation can achieve measurable success over such a long period of time with such a disparate ratio of members to administrators, why does a micronation with barely a dozen members (which is the vast majority of them) require a hierarchy so complex that each member ends up with three or four different titles (which is also most of them). Yeah this is the point I am making all along, that there needs to be a better micronations to population ratio, but also an active and organized population.
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George
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Post by George on Jun 7, 2011 19:20:42 GMT 10
...and your evidence for this is ? I knew some of the people in it and they mentioned it a few times. They also produced and sometimes sold things that they couldn't afford from their own budgets. By "evidence" I mean reliable third-party independently-verifiable documentation, or photographic/videographic records of some sort. I've been hearing these sorts of tales for decades, and so far exactly none of them have ever proven to be true.
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Post by themicronations on Jun 7, 2011 19:54:09 GMT 10
By "evidence" I mean reliable third-party independently-verifiable documentation, or photographic/videographic records of some sort. I've been hearing these sorts of tales for decades, and so far exactly none of them have ever proven to be true. I was not a member of the group, for evidence you would have to contact one of their former members. They used to have videos on the net of public speeches and what not... so I assume their former members still have them somewhere.
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George
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Post by George on Jun 7, 2011 21:41:55 GMT 10
I've seen their youtube video collection.
It's not impressive.
It seems to be one anonymous guy with a militarist fetish.
NEXT!
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Dagostinia
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Post by Dagostinia on Jun 8, 2011 1:56:31 GMT 10
George, you bring up a few points that have been plaguing me for a while. The first regards cascading organizations. I have to say that I am guilty of such acts. Dagostinia has 16 departments, most of which are broken into 2 or 3 divisions. The reason? Most likely self-aggrandizement. I am also fond of administration and organization. What's even battier is that there are really only two real human positions actively held throughout all of my micronation, that of Monarch and Oversight. I could probably discard most of t'other but it's fun for me. And if I'm not having fun I must be doing something wrong.
This leads somewhat into the next question, that of "why?" Why form a micronation? Everything that I do in the name of Dagostinia could be done in the name of the mundane. I'm all for the greater goal of unraveling what "nation" means and creating a new world order (as it were). But self subsistence, conservation, and Kiva micro loans don't need a micronation to happen. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?
This further leads to my last point, that of success. You say that Atlantium is a successful micronation. Why? Merely because you've existed for longer than most? What makes Molossia successful? Media coverage? What makes Sealand successful? True autonomy? Hutt River Province - tourism? Perhaps I need more citizens than just my immediate household. My point is not to call you out. I respect that you are intelligent and not approaching micronationalism as a passing hobby. Rather I am trying to delve into the minds of others to figure out how I can make a difference and rock the boat a little in the world through this avenue.
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Post by rareearth on Jun 8, 2011 7:04:22 GMT 10
George, you bring up a few points that have been plaguing me for a while. The first regards cascading organizations. I have to say that I am guilty of such acts. Dagostinia has 16 departments, most of which are broken into 2 or 3 divisions. The reason? Most likely self-aggrandizement. I am also fond of administration and organization. What's even battier is that there are really only two real human positions actively held throughout all of my micronation, that of Monarch and Oversight. I could probably discard most of t'other but it's fun for me. And if I'm not having fun I must be doing something wrong. This leads somewhat into the next question, that of "why?" Why form a micronation? Everything that I do in the name of Dagostinia could be done in the name of the mundane. I'm all for the greater goal of unraveling what "nation" means and creating a new world order (as it were). But self subsistence, conservation, and Kiva micro loans don't need a micronation to happen. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? This further leads to my last point, that of success. You say that Atlantium is a successful micronation. Why? Merely because you've existed for longer than most? What makes Molossia successful? Media coverage? What makes Sealand successful? True autonomy? Hutt River Province - tourism? Perhaps I need more citizens than just my immediate household. My point is not to call you out. I respect that you are intelligent and not approaching micronationalism as a passing hobby. Rather I am trying to delve into the minds of others to figure out how I can make a difference and rock the boat a little in the world through this avenue. I am certainly guilty of "cascading organisations": livenations.netHowever, it should be noted that there are people, sometimes more than just a couple of people, associated with the Micronational Professional Registry, the Cesidian Church, Micro State, the Fifth World Health Organisation, the Great Pacific Garbage Patch Treaty, the Cesidian Root, etc., so nothing listed on the Live Nations homepage is artificial or forced. The basic ingredients of a successful micronation are Without these two basic ingredients you could achieve nothing. However, the basic ingredients will not automatically make the difference. The difference is made by a genuine original and attractive culture, by the compact that is created by people working not so much for the nation, but for all its different organisations/ministries, and these are the real brains and arms of any nation. Ummoagians (Um·moa·gi·ans) are not those 40+ folks who have signed up to become citizens, and have yet to contribute a single thing to the wealth and pride of the nation. Actually some Ummoagians are not even Ummoagians on record, and yet their nationality cannot be denied even by me. Ummoagians are people like... - Peter, who I call the Lt. Governor of the UMMOA, and not because he goes around in some grandiloquent uniform like the President of Molossia, but because he is the Officer of the Cesidian Root's master root servers, and he is also politically active in his native Germany.
- Kai, who doesn't pontificate about anything political or religious, and yet he does maintain several Cesidian Root root servers on two continents.
- Francesco, who leads a very active life outside the UMMOA, and yet is also our very dynamic Ambassador to Italy, the only one who has actually gotten some real mileage with our diplomatic passports, and without even boarding a single plane.
- Clarissa, who isn't an Ummoagian because she possesses one of the UMMOA's diplomatic passports. Actually, without the permission of a legal parent or guardian she would be too young for that being only 10 years old. She's an Ummoagian because she understands her uncle's Analytic Theology like no theologian on earth at the moment does. She was commissioned to make artwork for the UMMOA, and the n-result was stunning. She has also signed up for all the public petitions that were created by or for the UMMOA. She is a real "Statue of Liberty", a real flag-waver, a fierceless supporter of the UMMOA who actually does understand, and at such a surprisingly young age, how the country she was born in periodically lets her and every other noble human being down, and all in the name of special interests and profits for the few.
Well, I hope I gave at least few here an extra reason for waking up in the morning, and if not to keep their nations alive, then to at least remain active Fifth Worlders.
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George
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Post by George on Jun 8, 2011 11:23:52 GMT 10
You say that Atlantium is a successful micronation. Why? Merely because you've existed for longer than most? What makes Molossia successful? Media coverage? What makes Sealand successful? True autonomy? Hutt River Province - tourism? Perhaps I need more citizens than just my immediate household. My point is not to call you out. I respect that you are intelligent and not approaching micronationalism as a passing hobby. Rather I am trying to delve into the minds of others to figure out how I can make a difference and rock the boat a little in the world through this avenue. I'll answer this bit of your question first, because it's the simplest, and because it's the one I know the most about :-) In order to measure success, you first need to establish your metrics. With respect to Atantium I did this at the age of 15, in 1981-82. Having researched and had personal contact all of the well-known micronations that I was aware of at that time (namely Hutt River Province, Rainbow Creek, Bumbunga and Sealand), I arrived at the conclusion that Hutt River Province was the one that was (a) the most widely-known, (b) the most interesting, and (c) the one that made the most money out of their activities. I'm a naturally very competitive person, so I decided that one of my aims in life from that point onwards was to emulate and exceed the achievements of Hutt River Province. I therefore decided that I was somehow going to acquire a parcel of rural land a few hundred acres in extent, somewhere in New South Wales that wasn't too far from Sydney, and develop it with whole series of purpose-built monuments and structures that would serve as Atlantium's ceremonial focal point, as well as points of particular interest to tourists. I have also always been exceedingly doggedly determined, so the idea of working towards the achievement of such a goal - one that might not be realised for another 20, 30 or 40 years - was not something that phased me at age 15; nor does it phase me now. In January 2008 - after a decade of actively refining Atlantium's contemporary socio-political raison d'etre, and actively promoting it via the international media to the extent that we've received positive coverage in media everywhere from Peru to Turkey- thereby building a membership counted in the many hundreds, and an administration comprised of individuals who are both wealthy and influential (in the REAL world) - I finally realised the first part of the plan - the aquisition of our 200 acre Province of Aurora. For the past three and a half years my associates and friends have been working with me to bring the facilities at Aurora up to what we consider to be a minimum acceptable standard. Tens of thousands of real Australian dollars have already been expended to that end.. In August this year I will be spending a further $3500 for earthworks and road construction purposes + about $800 on street signage and landcaping works. In September and October I will be making a further $5000+ investment in the laying of multiple concrete slabs which will support the erection of a number of new purpose-built monuments at various locations in Aurora; the primary edifice will consist of a 3 metre-high corinthian column surmounted by a gold-plated Imperial Eagle and flanked by 4 sphinxes situated at the top of Capital Hill - which will itself entail a further investment of about $1500 to properly realise before the end of 2011. This is all being done in the real world, by real people whose real identities are on the public record. All of it is also photographically documented for the entire world to see - and all of it is being done SPECIFICALLY for purposes related to Atlantium. On the organisational credibility side of the equation, Atlantium's representatives in various parts of the world have, over the past decade, personally met with various heads of government and heads of state on our behalf - among them the presidents of Brazil and the Dominican Republic, the Vice President of Iran, the Foreign Affairs Minister of Nepal, the Prime Minister of India and the Minister of Education of Maharashtra state. On 11 May 2011, our senior representative in Brazil was part of a delegation who met Pope Benedict XVI at the Vactican. Once again, this is all photographically documented in the public domain. ...and that is why I consider our activities to be worthy of the appellation "successful".
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Post by rogue ambassador on Jun 9, 2011 1:03:37 GMT 10
As Atlantium is founded upon the concept of extraterritorial sovereignty does/will Aurora have a status (from Atlantium's point of view) similar to the Sovereign Military Order of Malta's properties in Rome? (rather than the Hutt River Province model of territorially sovereign nation state)
Also, are you ignoring Australian federal and New South Wales state/local laws regarding environmental protection, zoning, building permits, building codes, etc?
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Dagostinia
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Post by Dagostinia on Jun 9, 2011 2:21:18 GMT 10
Thank you George for answering the first bit. That is definitely a mull-worthy lot of info. I don't currently perceive Dagostinia as aspiring to those heights. I would agree that you are profoundly successful and will probably be counted in the top ten modern micronations. Perhaps the matter of our success needs to be fronted with the question of what our goals are. As I've stated, those are self-subsistence and conservation.
But if I may be entertained for a minute, the goal of Aurora seems similar to a themed subdivision (I hesitate to say theme park). The only reason I could see for running it under the auspice of a micronation is to attempt to gain some token of autonomy. Hutt River Province runs as a micronation but from my understanding Australia treats them as a business. And given that viewpoint, they are a rather successful business in that they have found a way to supplement their lost wheat monies with other revenue.
Therefore, why should I be bothered to exercise self-subsistence and conservation in the name of a micronation? I could follow another model similar to Dancing Rabbit Ecovillage in Missouri (easy there), USA. These folks have created a semi-autonomous community. They have far exceeded their zoning permissions for rural farm acreage, yet the great state of MO is not concerned. Partially this is due to the lax approach that MO extends. But it also has to do with the Dancing Rabbits having communicated with the macro-entity and proposing a construction plan that respects the natural resources.
But I've always had dreams of autonomy. I tend to follow libertarianism to the extent that I believe smaller government is better. I don't necessarily approve of licensing procedures for everything. But I am a touch fearful of the government that exists and wish not to ruffle peacock feathers because I build a cluster of 200sf "outbuildings" on a rural acre without permits (technically legal but smacks of alterior motives). I am also not willing to move to Missouri or Nevada or Montana or Mexico in order to get out from under those restrictions. Nor do I have the money to buy an island or freighter or dump tons of sand onto a reef.
So I guess I am just playing micronation? What's the end game of micronationalism?
</vent>
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Post by sogoln on Jun 9, 2011 4:20:44 GMT 10
So I guess I am just playing micronation? Most micronationalists won't admit it but quite often that's all they actually do. ;D
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George
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Post by George on Jun 9, 2011 6:27:27 GMT 10
As Atlantium is founded upon the concept of extraterritorial sovereignty does/will Aurora have a status (from Atlantium's point of view) similar to the Sovereign Military Order of Malta's properties in Rome? (rather than the Hutt River Province model of territorially sovereign nation state) Yes, absolutely. That's a good analogy - and it's more-or-less how the concept has been explained on our website for many years. Also, are you ignoring Australian federal and New South Wales state/local laws regarding environmental protection, zoning, building permits, building codes, etc? Not at all. We're adhering to all applicable regulations. In some cases we're exceeding them; for example, we are considering formally applying a conservation covenant (in NSW law) over 90% of our landholding, in order to permanently preserve the rare piece of remnant savannah woodland we occupy. Our aim has never been to either confront authority or somehow magically "slip below the radar". Instead we aim to co-opt the suppport of Boorowa Shire Council on the basis that we are injecting a cash revenue stream into an often moribund rural economy.
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Post by rogue ambassador on Jun 9, 2011 7:51:48 GMT 10
So Atlantium's unilateral assertion of extraterritorial authority over its enclaves is symbolic only.
I'm not telling you how to run your state, but if you're going to obey NSW law wouldn't it be more consistent to drop the assertion of extraterritorial authority (from the website and any other public communications) until such time that circumstances allow for extraterritorial authority to actually be exercised?
Or, maintain the assertion of extraterritorial authority and cease adhering to all applicable NSW/AUS regulations and laws?
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George
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Post by George on Jun 9, 2011 9:50:47 GMT 10
In the real world this sort of thing is never an "either / or" scenario.
As with most organisations (including most large micronations), Atlantium maintains multiple multi-layered (but not inconsistent) narratives - both public and private.
This gives us the ability to trundle out the narrative-of-choice in a diversity of possible situations.
Part of what we do is elaborate theatre. Part of it is public policy development. Part of it is political positioning and activism. Part of it is pandering to the tastes and prejudices of the general public.
This is a deliberate strategy, and it has served us well for a long time.
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