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Post by shadowdarkfyre on Mar 21, 2009 15:16:38 GMT 10
This was the first micronation I encountered... and served as an inspiration for the creation of the Domain... lots-online.com/Its safe to say that this remains one of the longer standing nations in our community...
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George
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Post by George on Mar 22, 2009 23:09:21 GMT 10
Call me old-fashioned, but I wish these guys would just stick with one name/micronation, instead of constantly re-naming themselves.
It's most confusing to have the same group of people reappearing every few years with yet another incarnation of the same micronation.
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Post by shadowdarkfyre on Mar 24, 2009 3:01:36 GMT 10
<chuckles>
I've seen worse in the past...
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Post by sogoln on Mar 24, 2009 4:32:32 GMT 10
Lack of real identity?
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George
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Post by George on Mar 24, 2009 4:58:47 GMT 10
I'd say so. It's difficult to develop a meaningful identity when you "claim" all of Pennsylvania yet have a total population that can be counted on one hand.
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Post by shadowdarkfyre on Mar 24, 2009 7:31:56 GMT 10
Difficult, true... But not impossible... Let we forget... Many of us started with less... The Domain itself began with only four citizens, including myself... And there are many micronations out there who continue to have just that and little more than...
In that breath, micronationalism's patron "saint" Emperor Norton the First came back from nothing to claim the whole of the United States on his own force of will, and had the respect and following of one of the largest cities in the United States as a result of how he carried himself thereafter. So much so that they dedicated the Bay Bridge to him when it was completed years after his death.
Yes, I agree that from a certain point of view, it is rather difficult to keep one's identity. However, from the point of view of the nation in question, perhaps their convictions are strong enough for them to be valid. And, it may be enough for some in the micronational community. Macronations have been known to go through just as many changes, though in a far more extensive amount of time.
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George
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Post by George on Mar 24, 2009 14:55:43 GMT 10
Difficult, true... But not impossible... Let we forget... Many of us started with less... The Domain itself began with only four citizens, including myself... And there are many micronations out there who continue to have just that and little more than... I think a lot more micronations would last a lot longer and achieve a lot more if they simply moderated their ambitions so that the latter were kept roughly analogous to the size of their population, and the extent of their financial and other resources. Ambition is a good thing - but only if it's backed by the capacity to deliver on the desired outcome in a credible manner. Initial modest aims are more easily achieved - and success in their achievement, in turn, breeds incrementally greater possibilities for further success. Unrealistically reaching for the stars at the outset, however, often merely results in a failure so profound that the entire enterprise is simply abandoned as a grand disappointment.
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Post by shadowdarkfyre on Mar 24, 2009 15:42:59 GMT 10
Did you ask to see if those were actually their aims, Mr. Cruikshank...
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George
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Post by George on Mar 24, 2009 20:36:35 GMT 10
I have no idea what their aims are.
And neither, it seems, do they - which is point I was trying to make.
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Post by shadowdarkfyre on Mar 25, 2009 13:46:33 GMT 10
Then I am certain they will figure it out in their own time...
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Post by C. M. Siervicül on Apr 10, 2009 6:17:54 GMT 10
Hmph. I still like Triparia best.
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Apr 10, 2009 7:45:14 GMT 10
Emperor Shawn is still Emperor Shawn, not matter what his country is called.
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Post by davidv on Apr 21, 2009 14:32:38 GMT 10
What they've tried to do is much like what Talossa had done successfully, create a micronation that absorbs the cultural traits of its physical, macronational surroundings. There are similarities between this group and the group that forged the "old growth" core of Talossa- the original strength of which lay in its real life social networks, and long-term ties to real life social circles in its macronational environment.
The idea is there, but they seem not to have settled until recently on not just a name but also the social/political structure of their entity, other than being an Empire, I'm not sure if they'll be able to muster the sort of human resources that the larger and more successful micronations of its type- which I tend to characterise as Talossa, Aerican Empire and Reunion- I don't know if they'll ever be able to figure it out.
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Apr 21, 2009 18:24:26 GMT 10
From what I heard, what we can see of Triparia / Triselene / Septempontia / Aristene is just the tip of an iceberg, as the Pennsylvanian core group of this micronation didn't constantly communicate their activities to the internet.
But I think there is another significant difference between Aristene and Talossa. Talossa (in its two most commonly known instances) emancipated itself away from its founder, thus becoming a self-sustaining idea, while Aristene still depends muchly on the whims of its founder. Without the input of Emperor Shawn, it seems to fall asleep and apart almost instantly.
Of course this is only an observation from the far distance, so I may be completely wrong.
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George
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Post by George on Apr 22, 2009 8:03:36 GMT 10
Perhaps, in the spirit of Aerica, he should just rename it once and for all as the Empire of Shawnia. ;D
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Post by George on Apr 22, 2009 8:23:56 GMT 10
[Talossa] remains a testament to Madison's undoubted creative genius that it was and is so appealing to those who joined. I can't say I've ever been much impressed by assertions of Mr Madison's alleged creative genius in establishing Talossa. It certainly reflects his personal eccentricities and tendency towards obsession to a large degree, which makes it interesting in a Monty-Pythonesque sort of way - but kids have been creating bedroom kingdoms and invented languages for generations; Madison's merely lasted longer than most - and then had the supreme good fortune to become the focus of international media attention at the cusp of the internet boom. The spotlight could just as easily have alighted on Tony Skaggs' much longer-lived and obsessionally detailed Alphistia - or some other as-yet-undocumented project - in which case the world of micronations might have a somewhat different complexion today.
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Apr 22, 2009 17:48:50 GMT 10
What happened to David V.'s reply to my most recent message in this thread? Apparently it is gone, only a quote from it remained.
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George
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Post by George on Apr 22, 2009 18:20:35 GMT 10
I accidentally modified David's message, instead of replying to it - and there's no option for restoring modified comments here. Such are the pitfalls of being logged in as admin. I've already emailed him about it, and asked him to repost his message.
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Apr 22, 2009 20:03:34 GMT 10
Well, good to know what happened, and that it was merely an accident. After these "moving threads to hell"-sprees at MNeu I'm a tad nervous about disappearing messages. ;-)
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Post by C. M. Siervicül on Apr 23, 2009 2:08:10 GMT 10
[Talossa] remains a testament to Madison's undoubted creative genius that it was and is so appealing to those who joined. I can't say I've ever been much impressed by assertions of Mr Madison's alleged creative genius in establishing Talossa. It certainly reflects his personal eccentricities and tendency towards obsession to a large degree, which makes it interesting in a Monty-Pythonesque sort of way - but kids have been creating bedroom kingdoms and invented languages for generations; Madison's merely lasted longer than most - and then had the supreme good fortune to become the focus of international media attention at the cusp of the internet boom. The spotlight could just as easily have alighted on Tony Skaggs' much longer-lived and obsessionally detailed Alphistia - or some other as-yet-undocumented project - in which case the world of micronations might have a somewhat different complexion today. "Genius" may not be the right word, but I'd say it was more than good fortune. Talossa seems to have attracted the attention it did not just because of its obsessional detail but because of its sense of community, and because of Madison's work in looking outside his own project to catalogue similar entities. Recognizing his nation was part of a wider phenomenon is perhaps the biggest factor contributing to the media attention he got in the mid to late '90s. Alphistia is interesting, but by the time Talossa went online it had been a "virtual nation" personal project for over 20 years. That kept Alphistia introspective, and prevented it from presenting the impression of a vibrant community that Talossa did.
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George
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Post by George on Apr 23, 2009 6:49:55 GMT 10
After these "moving threads to hell"-sprees ...I'm a tad nervous about disappearing messages. ;-) We'll be having none of the "musical messages" stupidity that killed the other forum here.
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George
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Post by George on Apr 23, 2009 7:05:37 GMT 10
"Genius" may not be the right word, but I'd say it was more than good fortune. Talossa seems to have attracted the attention it did not just because of its obsessional detail but because of its sense of community, and because of Madison's work in looking outside his own project to catalogue similar entities. Recognizing his nation was part of a wider phenomenon is perhaps the biggest factor contributing to the media attention he got in the mid to late '90s. Alphistia is interesting, but by the time Talossa went online it had been a "virtual nation" personal project for over 20 years. That kept Alphistia introspective, and prevented it from presenting the impression of a vibrant community that Talossa did. In my opinion, Alphistia and Talossa are two sides of the same coin. Both Madison and Skaggs are highly eccentric and imaginative, and both created obsessionally detailed imaginary worlds. Madison was initially more successful in involving more people in his project, which allowed it to take on a life of its own, independent of him, when his hubris eventually got the better of him. Skaggs' project is more of a highly evolved geofiction versus Talossa's cultural fiction - and from what I've seen, has attracted more in the way of academic and art community attention than the latter has; it certainly seems to have as an enthusiastic a group of adherents as Talossa - they've just been less successful (perhaps, less interested) at promoting themselves to the general public - a fact in which Skaggs' emotional oversensitivity and deep personal attachment to his creation undoubtedly plays a part. Someone should write a doctoral thesis comparing the two; it would make for an interesting study in the psychology of creativity. Both Talossa and Alphistia remind me of the fantasy world Borovnia, created by the two protagonists of the Peter Jackson film Heavenly Creatures - which is based on the true story of the notorious 1954 Parker-Hulme murder case in New Zealand:
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Post by davidv on Apr 24, 2009 16:56:26 GMT 10
The founders of the Aerican Empire and of Reunion remain in charge to the present day, which is a marked contrast to Robert Ben Madison, who renounced Talossa only to establish some form of "government in exile".
Talossa became appealing to people other than Madison, and its strength lay in its ability to draw upon the real life social circles of Madison and his friends- thereby creating a strong sense of community, as well as developing its culture and institutions. It is a lasting testament to Talossa that it proved and has proven so appealing for so long. It was more than good fortune- Madison possessed undoubted creative genius- it grew beyond a bedroom, it was not a "game", but very much a community.
Madison, however, had serious personality flaws that the other eminent micronational leaders mentioned generally didn't have. Many have noted that his online conduct and people skills and his real life conduct and people skills were markedly different. Above all things, he simply could not handle the fact that Talossa had already taken a life of its own, independent of its founder, and simply could not deal with the changes that the Internet brought.
The problem with many predominantly or wholly online-based micronations is that they have kind of missed the point, they failed to build anything or substance much less engender the same sense of community and belonging.
Creative genius is not merely in coming up with the idea, but in being able to sustain it for so long, and being able to enhance and broaden its appeal.
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Apr 25, 2009 7:05:08 GMT 10
Whether we love it or not, at some time Ben Madison was one of the few charismatic leaders that (only net-based?) micronationalism has ever seen. Maybe even the only charismatic micronational leader.
More or less, there's one other thing that I wanted to discuss - the Talossan transition from a local group of friends to an internet phenomenon. Was it really all King Ben's fault that this has been a bumpy ride? Or isn't it completely impossible to maintain a micronation that is exclusively half netless, half net-based?
Because between the people without internet access and people without "ground contact" there will have to be an intermediate level to maintain a dialogue between the extremes. At least, until one paradigm becomes the dominant one and the other one is washed away...
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Post by davidv on Apr 25, 2009 16:07:53 GMT 10
But any distinction between cyber and non-cyber was all but obliterated by the end of the decade anyway. And Talossa certainly wasn't the only such entity to have pre-Internet origins. There may be a couple of long-standing but much lower profile ones too.
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Apr 26, 2009 6:58:57 GMT 10
Maybe I don't remember this all precisely enough, but I think still in 2003 there was a big controversial Talossan debate about the so-called "pocket votes", i.e., Ben Madison walking around in Milwaukee to collect votes from citizens who (deliberately?) still had no means to access the internet.
This unresolved issue and SoS Frenettes' attempt to validate "pocket votes" by telephone calls to the web-less voters was one more stepping stone towards the 2004 Revolution, the event that split our nationette into two.
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Post by davidv on Apr 26, 2009 15:43:01 GMT 10
I think pocket votes were there for every party, just people whose only activity was to cast their vote and then disappear until the next ballot.
But back on track, it raises the issue of what comes first- social, cultural or institutional development- in building a successful micronation?
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Post by George on Apr 30, 2009 6:24:11 GMT 10
In any human endeavour, what should come first is people.
It's not possible to succeed at anything of any significance without communal co-operative effort; its the basis of civilization.
The problem with the vast majority of micronations is that they're one-man-shows that focus almost entirely on creating complex theoretical structures that have no useful purpose, nor any conceivable hope of ever functioning in reality.
The energies of the prime motivator are then wasted in trying frantically to fill enough positions in "the system" with people, so that it all somehow splutters into life - rather like some sort of lumbering, micronational Bride of Frankenstein...
Unsurprisingly, as with Herr Doktor's efforts, this process almost always results in failure.
While formalised structures and systems are essential to manage human interaction effectively, there's no point in having them unless you first have some actual human interaction.
The scale and nature of those interactions is what ideally will give rise to practical and sustainable organising principles and operational systems. Successful multi-person micronations like Talossa and Reunion obviously do this well.
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Post by davidv on Apr 30, 2009 11:24:03 GMT 10
Correct. Many of them start off as the brainchild of one person, before getting others sufficiently interested to join up. Once that community crystallised, then institutional development began. Talossa took 5-6 years before its parliamentary system was introduced.
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Post by George on Apr 30, 2009 13:55:27 GMT 10
That certainly makes sense.
It mirrors the approach taken by Atlantium; we've been balking at reintroducing a legislature for most of the past decade, because frankly, the present system of ad hoc appointments and collegiate ministerial governance works fine for an entity with a population barely in excess of 1200.
Were we to decide to revive the Imperial Senate, it would more likely than not be in the form of a unicameral legislature, with a total of no more than 10 Senators.
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