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Post by Lykos Packleader on Sept 29, 2010 8:34:04 GMT 10
Heyla,
This would sort of be a combo of "second Life" real estate, but has anybody (that I haven't read about)sell virtual businesses (not Cafepress) on the Internet? A virtual mall? Could it be possible to use alternative currencies (H.O.U.R.S.) to buy items from this "mall?"
There is? Can I rent space? Could I develop a Lykoshan "bathtub wine/brandy, and sell it on the Internet,... in this "mall?"
People could trade real money for these micronational currencies (minus a "handling fee") and then buy things from these "connected" stores... is any of this possible? We don't have to sell much; it would be a terrific PR gimmick (better than http://www.youtube.com), maybe....
... just a thought!
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Post by Zandrovia on Sept 29, 2010 12:59:28 GMT 10
We currently have a citizen ran real estate and community development business in Second Life and yes it is a great way to get exposure for your nation. Depending on your budget and how big or little you want to start there are tons of possibilities from having a small embassy and shop (which could run from just a couple of dollars a week) to developing a full community (called a sim or region) that would display your way of life, house citizens, etc. (that gets a little more pricey, our company handles that for about $100/week).
If you are interested in looking into this further feel free to let me know.
As far as finding a way to use alternative currencies, on that I am not sure. However, if you could find someone who is into coding who could develop a HUD for second life it may be possible to configure a community HUD that exchanges Lindens (the currency in Second Life) to you own national currency.
We have also been trying to get enough interest from other micronations to do a joint micronational region there that would give each micronation a little space for their own embassies, shops, etc. sort of like a large virtual micronational world's fair. Split between 4 or 5 micronations it would only cost around $20-$25 a week per nation (obviously the more nations the lower the cost but the smaller amount of land available.)
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Post by Lykos Packleader on Sept 30, 2010 9:29:57 GMT 10
Heyla,
Of course I'm interested, but not at $100 per week. I'm a poor little church puppy, and I get my daily gruel from the Occupational Forces (FEDs)that are generously funding my disability (I say they feel sorry for me, but I'm not choosy).
The other problem is maintaining my 2nd Life account; right now, there's no one here who can see to do it. I am certain, however, that it's possible to do something about that ---and, yes, Lindens are most definitely convertable into Lunas. I'm thinking, though, that this should really be a case of a multi-nation project. You know: you, me, the Formori, Lemuria, etc.
I suppose I could get somebody to run the embassy/shop for me, but I'd have to pay them something.
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Post by Zandrovia on Oct 1, 2010 3:51:55 GMT 10
I am always interested in multinational projects that show our ability to work together in peace on a project that furthers micronationalism. As far as staffing your Embassy, I do not know if you have a system of community service in your nation or not, but short of finding volunteers, you can configure greeters (bots) to give people information about your nation when they enter the embassy on an automatic basis which could be useful as well. Things in Second Life can get a bit pricey in a way, but compared to the cost of trying to set up a physical embassy with the same sort of international reach it is a very affordable alternative. We are looking among our supporters for possible investors and using other revenue models to develop a region that models Zandrovian life. And we have our embassy and the S.A.M. headquarters under development as we speak so we will see how it goes
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Post by themicronations on Nov 17, 2010 17:25:38 GMT 10
Heyla, This would sort of be a combo of "second Life" real estate, but has anybody (that I haven't read about)sell virtual businesses (not Cafepress) on the Internet? A virtual mall? Could it be possible to use alternative currencies (H.O.U.R.S.) to buy items from this "mall?" There is? Can I rent space? Could I develop a Lykoshan "bathtub wine/brandy, and sell it on the Internet,... in this "mall?" People could trade real money for these micronational currencies (minus a "handling fee") and then buy things from these "connected" stores... is any of this possible? We don't have to sell much; it would be a terrific PR gimmick (better than http://www.youtube.com), maybe.... ... just a thought! It will need to be more than a PR gimmick I think. Second Life aside, if several micronations could develop their own economy it could revolutionize micronationalism. In order for a micronation's currency to ever be worth anything it will have to be backed by either products and services or currency of a macronation. Once either of these 2 are completed, virtual estate value then may be a factor.
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Post by rareearth on Nov 18, 2010 3:20:40 GMT 10
Any micronational or alternative currency will have the same problems facing credit cards: while most merchants, service providers, and alternative service non-profits will accept Visa or MasterCard, not everyone will accept American Express, Discover Card, JCB, Carte Bleue, China UnionPay, and BC Card. Debt cards — the useful ones usually have a Visa or MasterCard logo — are not very safe to use with just any merchant on the Internet, since they are less secure. Credit cards in general — with the exception of Visa and MasterCard, because they are so frequent even with debt card use, and American Express, since they have a very successful charge card system — are also likely to become less useful in the future, since they depend too heavily on now hard-to-get bank credit, and so I believe a major financial transaction system shake-up is possible in the future. Online payment processing services such as Google Checkout, Moneybookers, and PayPal have the problem that they are useful only when web-shopping. With non-electronic currencies the situation is worse. Ithaca Hours are probably great, or at least useful if you live in Ithaca, New York, but you have the greatest range of products and services if you use the US Dollar (USD), not Ithaca Hours, especially if the dollars are electronic, and have a Visa or MasterCard logo. Micronational currencies have some value if they are made out of gold or silver, but what is their intrinsic value if they are fiat currencies? They are about as valuable as the micronation itself. And even the micronational silver coins are not very useful because after all, what micronational product or service can you buy with the silver coins? Even Sealand seems to accept only credit cards (or PayPal) — read: non-Sealand money — for their Lord, Lady, Baron, or Baroness titles. Also, micronational backed currencies are not really useful outside the local micronation, since most intermicronational interactions happen through email and/or the WWW, and electronic transactions are more practical here. Moreover, any micronational electronic banking system in existence has proved to be susceptible to hacking. Another issue that will probably inhibit any micronational economic development is this: most micronations, just like their equivalents in the "Big Boys" network, are part of "little boys" networks, and unfortunately most of these are useful only for bragging privileges of belonging to any micronational organisation. Also, most micronations don't have direct relations with other micronations that have any everyday weight, and most micronations have never developed services and/or products that are perfectly competitive in the so-called 'real world' (or 'police state world'). Despite all of this, there is actually some good news from an economics perspective. The good news is that there are heavily-populated micronations out there: FIFTH WORLD NATION | Population (actual) | Atlantium | 1300 | Christiania | 850 | Hutt River (2 TLDs) | 20000 | Ladonia | 15000 | New Utopia | 3800 | NSK State | 900 | Oasi Città Aperta | 200 (est) | OSJ Malta | 20000 (est) | Pontinha | 12 | Réunion | 890 | Sealand | 19 | State of Sabotage | 9600 [K + R + M] | The Talossas | 167 (121 + 16 + 30) | UMMOA (4 TLDs) | 37 | Vikesland | 317 | Wirtland | 1263 | TOTAL | 54355 | AVERAGE | 4647 |
SIXTH WORLD NATION | Population (actual) | St. Charlie | 36 | Baltic Principality | 21 | Mnoer Empire | 27 | TTF-Bucksfan (4 TLDs) | 8 | TOTAL | 92 | AVERAGE | 23 |
Nota Bene: Please do not use these figures without citing the source — HMRD Cesidio Tallini, figures for 2010-11-17 or M:09M2010In fact, I figure that most of the micronations above either have one or more working TLDs in the Cesidian Root, or should, since there is at least economic potential for the purchase of second-level domains once altTLDs (alternative top-level domains) are working. It would also be pretty easy to setup working 'native' DNS websites for those altTLD domains, and at reasonable prices. So virtual ' real estate' is already available, and unlike Second Life, it is not 'native' to the ICANN root, but can be completely native to the Cesidian Root, and is available, or will soon be available to these micronations, or other small jurisdictions/inhabited localities: MICRONATION or OTHER | TOP-LEVEL DOMAINS | Fifth World Community | .5wc | Atlantium | .atla | Christiania | .christ | Cyberterra | .ct | Ladonia | .lad | OSJ Malta | .malta | NSK State | .nsk | Oasi Città Aperta | .oca | Hutt River | .phr & .hrp | New Utopia | .pnu | Pontinha | .pp | Réunion | .reu | Sealand | .sea | State of Sabotage | .sos | St. Charlie | .stc | The Talossas | .ta | TTF-Bucksfan | .ttf & .tallini & .bucksfan & .bucrafan | UMMOA | .um & .amomu & .islands & .ummoa | Vikesland | .vl | Wirtland | .wl |
Why have I chosen the entities above? Outside of the few I directly control (where I'm totally biased), it is just a reasonable business decision, at least it seems so for the long-term. Am I wrong about the potential of some micronations above? Probably, but the overall thought seems valid. Is there potential for a 'native' micronational currency? Yes, but it would be too limited to be a viable currency at least for the next 5 years. Are other ideas possible or applicable? Yes, and I invite some genuine new ideas here.
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Post by Lykos Packleader on Nov 18, 2010 9:32:25 GMT 10
Simply put: if we can have an alternative .TLD then we can have an alternative currency, only for trade between micronations, mostly, except for online “tourists” that want to buy real products from micronational markets… or they can purchase this currency (as a product itself), for e-gold, or “real” fiat money.
We could call this currency “mikro,” and someone could design what it might look like, and we can develop something like an online mall, where micronational products, etc. can be offered by such nations as Talossa, Vykesland, Molossia, Atlantium, Lykosha (hint*hint), the UMMOA (more hints), and a buyer uses “real” money to purchase mikros to trade for these products. The money would get funneled to the micronation selling the items … they send them to the customer (using UPS, Fedex, etc.), and they get paid. For now, there would probably be no interest paid to Mikros’ holders, until this thing gets going. My point is that this would be an agreement between the micronations, in the interests of becoming “real.”
… unless, of course, we’ve all been fooling ourselves. Well, have we?
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Post by themicronations on Nov 18, 2010 10:15:15 GMT 10
Also, micronational backed currencies are not really useful outside the local micronation, since most intermicronational interactions happen through email and/or the WWW, and electronic transactions are more practical here. Moreover, any micronational electronic banking system in existence has proved to be susceptible to hacking. Electronic currency is really the only practical way to go for most micronations. Which banking systems have been hacked? Are you referring to PHPbank? I do not have experience with any others.
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Post by rareearth on Nov 18, 2010 11:26:56 GMT 10
Also, micronational backed currencies are not really useful outside the local micronation, since most intermicronational interactions happen through email and/or the WWW, and electronic transactions are more practical here. Moreover, any micronational electronic banking system in existence has proved to be susceptible to hacking. Electronic currency is really the only practical way to go for most micronations. Which banking systems have been hacked? Are you referring to PHPbank? I do not have experience with any others. Here's the news, which I managed to find with some difficulty: Micronational alert: MIMBA insecureummoa.wordpress.com/tag/mimba/
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Post by rareearth on Nov 18, 2010 12:27:30 GMT 10
Simply put: if we can have an alternative .TLD then we can have an alternative currency, only for trade between micronations, mostly, except for online “tourists” that want to buy real products from micronational markets… or they can purchase this currency (as a product itself), for e-gold, or “real” fiat money. We could call this currency “mikro,” and someone could design what it might look like, and we can develop something like an online mall, where micronational products, etc. can be offered by such nations as Talossa, Vykesland, Molossia, Atlantium, Lykosha (hint*hint), the UMMOA (more hints), and a buyer uses “real” money to purchase mikros to trade for these products. The money would get funneled to the micronation selling the items … they send them to the customer (using UPS, Fedex, etc.), and they get paid. For now, there would probably be no interest paid to Mikros’ holders, until this thing gets going. My point is that this would be an agreement between the micronations, in the interests of becoming “real.” … unless, of course, we’ve all been fooling ourselves. Well, have we? The basic ideas aren't that bad. The devil is in the details. First of all, e-gold is not a fiat currency, but in fact a backed currency, backed with gold. That's the reason libertarians like it so much. Second, nobody will care to exchange a backed currency for a micronational fiat currency. Not for anything, but they usually do the opposite, or exchange fiat dollars for backed e-gold. I'm not sure there is a real advantage, since fiat currencies are susceptible to the risk of inflation and devaluation, but e-gold is not without holding fees, so what the heck is (really) the difference? Third, it gets complicated with the micronational currency middleman, since you are basically expecting two transactions to take place, not one: 1) e-gold in exchange for the 'mikra'; 2) 'mikra' in exchange for micronational products. Physics tells us that the more parts a system has, the greater the possibility of breakdown. Things may work that way even for non-physical things. So a micronational market where good micronations can participate is not a bad idea, although if it is a mere memorabilia market, there will be too much micronational duplication, I think. I mean, how many micronational baronial titles can a person buy? I recently became a Baron of the Duchy of Carniola. The only reason the title has any value at all is something called "two for one deal". In other words, I'm a Baron, but not of one Duchy of Carniola, but of both Carniolas in existence! In a similar manner, how many t-shirts with micronational flags or coat of arms can one buy, or mousepads with similar graphics? Unless, of course, you get lots of two for one deals. More easier to manage if somebody sells soap, and someone else sells towels, since it would take two nations for one to have a complete micronational shower. The devil is in the details, as you can see, but a micronational currency will probably be impractical for a relatively long time.
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Post by themicronations on Nov 18, 2010 16:10:28 GMT 10
Ah very interesting, thanks. I assume PHPBank had some massive security issues too, but I have never seen it documented anywhere.
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Post by Lykos Packleader on Nov 20, 2010 7:58:20 GMT 10
Heyla to all ---- I realize I’m being stubborn, but look at what I found online, with just a little Googling…. I refer all interested individuals and nations to the following URL: www.cyclos.orgThis is a web-based banking and financial administrative program, made primarily for alternative or local community currencies. This is a free download, and can be used to deposit, withdraw, use at online stores and online malls, for the purchase of real products and services (and can even be used offline, thru the use of POS terminals. Before everyone tells me that HOURS (Ithaca, NY) are only for local use, for the Ithaca community, allow me to point out that (1) the Ithaca HOURS are being used by me only as an example of "community currency," and (2) It's possible for us (micronations overall) to be an _online_ community, so long as we agree to be so. My point: we can transcend borders of geography... much as "FB fans" of Molossia have, and do things together. Once, .a group of micronations held an online “Expo,” where virtual pavillions were displayed, with interesting facts and other information for the curious visitors. Wouldn’t it have been grand to have curio booths “next” to each pavillions, and to advertise these items to the public? Nations, ask your citizens what they can make at home, and have them sell them.(souvenirs). Micronations enjoy a periodic upsurge (and downswing, to be sure) of popularity ---- "local cultural" trinkets can become collectibles (and I'm not talking about Cafepress, etc., but the NFA sold interesting, "local" products that had nothing to do with mousepads.Talossa has many citizens, at least some of whom are craftspeople, as does Atlantium, Lavalon, etc. and this Cyclos software would allow for buying, selling and trading in something other than dollar$ and pounds. The only reason not to at least think about trying this is if, after all, we've been lying to ourselves, and that we don't want to be taken seriously by "real" nations. My only obstacle is the usual “visual” one; I did, after all, find the software… even if we only sell amongst ourselves… eventually, the buyers of that (not-so-obscure) book about micronations will discover us buying and selling to one another, and thus, a new brick in the wall of reality will be put and mortared into place. “Each journey is simply a series of single steps.” I even have a product: “Bathtub Djinn,” wine/brandy sold in “eco-bottles” (recycled plastic bottles). Does anyone else have an “interesting” product (Seriously now)?
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Post by themicronations on Nov 20, 2010 11:15:17 GMT 10
I even have a product: “Bathtub Djinn,” wine/brandy sold in “eco-bottles” (recycled plastic bottles). Does anyone else have an “interesting” product (Seriously now)? I do not have any products that generate much revenue, but they do generate enough to stay out of the red ink (my personal music as well as a small music community website). Eventually though, once a massive video game project I'm working on is finished, that should bring in a grand or so a month. sites.google.com/site/lowrentmedia/lrm
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Post by rareearth on Nov 21, 2010 1:29:20 GMT 10
I realize I’m being stubborn, but look at what I found online, with just a little Googling…. I refer all interested individuals and nations to the following URL: www.cyclos.orgThis is a web-based banking and financial administrative program, made primarily for alternative or local community currencies. This is a free download, and can be used to deposit, withdraw, use at online stores and online malls, for the purchase of real products and services (and can even be used offline, thru the use of POS terminals. Are you aware that even if one created a Fifth World, and thus highly micronational community currency, that the currency would have to be pegged to the US Dollar, and that any income would still be taxable to the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) — originally created as a privately-owned collection agency that the bankers created to collect taxes from Federal government employees, and Federal government employees only —, which has really no legal jurisdiction or competence over foreign micronations? Also, I'm not sure about this, but the income may be taxable in US Dollars too... Why should the UMMOA, or any Fifth or Sixth World nation, become a subject of the Internal Revenue Service (IRS)? Are Ummoans or micronationals even remotely Federal government employees? Actually, why should even non-Federal government employees pay taxes to those bankers? Do you know what Yeshua Hanotzri, better known by the false name of 'Jesus of Nazareth', did to the tables of the bankers in Jerusalem back in the first century AD? Have you asked why he hated them even more than Roman taxing authorities? Here is a hint: they were neither fully Jewish, nor fully Roman...
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Post by Lykos Packleader on Nov 21, 2010 3:32:59 GMT 10
George,
I’m sorry, sir; but somebody has got to make this point clear to Mr. “Fifth Worlder,” otherwise, we’ll never get this right….
Tallini,
Any business doing business in the US pays taxes to the government that owns the land. Yes, I know that – if you collect monies in this country, you have to pay income & sales tax to the Federales. That is irrelevant, sir. The point of all this is to be “real;” so, if the French‘s business came to America, and did business in America, they’d have to pay taxes inAmerica_. Capish?
In the US, alternative currencies may be used if (1) the scrip can be traded for US dollars, and (2) the lowest denomination is no less than $1.00 and (3) the size & color is not too similar to the US dollar (fortunately, considering that all bills of the dollar are all the same size and color/green). I feel that you’re missing the larger picture. What do you think would have happened if Molossia, Lovely, etc. had included a link to their alternative currency online store in that rather remarkable book? People who bought the book would have also bought commemerative Valora, etc. and then would have visited Molossia, Valora in hand, and then they would have bought something… just like they brought their passports for getting a Molossian Visa stamp thereon. What ever could be wrong with that? How can you not get the purpose of local “community” markets?
Like all other nations of the world, micronations do not live in a vacuum. I personally believe that if we treat this all seriously, others will, too. Sovereignty is the name of the game; reality is the way to achieve this great goal.
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Post by rareearth on Nov 21, 2010 6:39:43 GMT 10
You call me "Mr Fifth Worlder", but I did not invent the term "Fifth World", and a Fifth Worlder, any Fifth Worlder, is in reality a micronationalist that treats all you mention seriously, because he is a micronationalist that is a citizen of an older, usually more serious micronation. A Sixth Worlder may not have his micronational feet fully on the ground yet, and a "seventh worlder" is really not a micronationalist at all, but all Fifth Worlders are serious about micronationalism. I'm not reacting to the fact that the US charges taxes even on micronational transactions. All the "Big Boys" do this, and will continue to do this with impunity until Judgement Day, when they shall meet the "Bigger Boys", masters of the known universe. I'm basically questioning the value of having a micronational currency, and I'm not being unmatriotic or undoctriotic about it either. I'm kind of both of these as an Independent Long Islander and Ummoan. You see, I do actually control the .ili virtual space. I don't pay taxes to "Sammy Boy", not only because "Sammy Boy" is not my uncle, but because the Cesidian Root is my creation, and I keep it alive as well. So maintaining the Cesidian Root may be slightly expensive, but it is, overall, a worthwhile endeavour, because it adds DNS freedom to the equation, which one doesn't have under the plutocratic tyranny of ICANN, and it is also a micronational resource, and hopefully it will become even more so in time. With a Fifth World currency you may have the benefit of having people like "Emperor Norton" on the face of the currency, but there is only one other advantage. The only other advantage of a Fifth-Sixth World currency, is if the people exchange their dollars, and hang on to the micronational currency for some time. In that case, we would be able to have the hard currency immediately, and pay our bills, while otherwise we would probably have to borrow the same currency, and pay interest. Yet we still have to pay interest to "Sammy Boy" for the privilege of using our currency, since we have to pay taxes, and we don't get to pay taxes in the non-hard currency either! Sorry, but I have a problem with that, because the US acts like they own your currency, and they print your currency too. I think there is something very monopolistic about all that, since the UN governments act like they have a monopoly on force, and the banksters act like they have a monopoly on money (and I think that is illegal because it is definitely uncostitutional). An old master said it well: you cannot serve two masters, i.e. the UN governments or "Caesar", and the global banksters, or "Mammon". It is legitimate to only serve one master, and even that Master should not be above the law as the banksters clearly are.
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Post by Duke Casimir on Nov 21, 2010 7:35:05 GMT 10
Sir, When one is presented with a glass-like, “inpenetrable,” barrier and is told that – in order to win – you must climb it – then you must chip away at the barriers in whatever way possible…. Even if only to eke out a toe hold, one achingly painful step at a time. In other words, if you never try, you will always fail. No one will mind if you first achieve success in only a small way; they’ll respect you for trying. Yes, it’s galling to only succeed in “their” backyard, but it’s still success. Yes, it’s frustrating to appear a pauper’s king, in only a small fashion, but next time, it won’t be so. In another thread, King George of Atlantium mentions that “no money equals no success,” and and I think he’s correct. So, sometimes you get knocked back two steps for every one forward. But people will remember you just the same; it was the same for me when the Umatilla Indians recognized TorHavn’s statement of sovereignty… it may not have “meant anything,” but it was a moment nevertheless (reference: remblogs.typepad.com/sovcit/2006/01/cpa_iraq_coalit.html). You see, even the successes that cost you everything and garnered you nothing concrete were victories all the same. Sometimes, the journey was what was needed. If you cannot “get there” by flying, you’ll just have to walk… or even crawl. In whatever way necessary, the TorHavn Project will succeed… even if we do have to crawl.
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Post by rareearth on Nov 21, 2010 13:01:11 GMT 10
Sir, When one is presented with a glass-like, “inpenetrable,” barrier and is told that – in order to win – you must climb it – then you must chip away at the barriers in whatever way possible…. Even if only to eke out a toe hold, one achingly painful step at a time. In other words, if you never try, you will always fail. No one will mind if you first achieve success in only a small way; they’ll respect you for trying. I admire your persistence. If only people on Long Island had some of that micronational spirit! However, Einstein once said, "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." If you sell a Fifth World currency in the US, you can try over and over, but you'll end up with the same n-result: paying taxes to the government that owns the land. On the other hand, if you sell a Fifth World currency on a native, and potential Fifth World website such as this one... the-IRS-sucks.5wc...I believe it would be next to impossible to be subject to taxation, because then they would have to prove that the website above is part of the United States... In reality the website above is not even part of the Internet of the United States. However, I keep hearing from everybody here about websites like secondlife.com, about websites like project.cyclos.org, websites that are indeed part of the Internet of United States, and are thus subject to US taxation. There is only one taxing authority at potential websites such as this one... the-IRS-sucks.5wc...and that authority is also known as the.baron...or "The Dot Baron". The only thing that authority usually taxes is your patience, but you seem to have a lot of it if you wish to persist in being automatically taxed. I just ask this: why? Yes, the website above works in the Cesidian Root. Yes, you can resolve that domain by inserting two IP numbers in the Internet Protocol (TCP/IP) Properties of your computer. No, that action neither damages your computer, and can also be easily reversed if you fall out of love with the Internet that only taxes your patience.
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Post by themicronations on Nov 21, 2010 17:57:54 GMT 10
If you sell a Fifth World currency in the US, you can try over and over, but you'll end up with the same n-result: paying taxes to the government that owns the land. On the other hand, if you sell a Fifth World currency on a native, and potential Fifth World website such as this one... the-IRS-sucks.5wc...I believe it would be next to impossible to be subject to taxation, because then they would have to prove that the website above is part of the United States... In reality the website above is not even part of the Internet of the United States. However, I keep hearing from everybody here about websites like secondlife.com, about websites like project.cyclos.org, websites that are indeed part of the Internet of United States, and are thus subject to US taxation. There is only one taxing authority at potential websites such as this one... the-IRS-sucks.5wc...and that authority is also known as the.baron...or "The Dot Baron". The only thing that authority usually taxes is your patience, but you seem to have a lot of it if you wish to persist in being automatically taxed. I just ask this: why? Got a few questions about this... so if we use the other root why couldn't we still be taxed? Since we are in the U.S. at time of transaction, can't they tax that. In fact, can't that still tax U.S. based business who are doing business elsewhere? Secondly... a lot of new nations in the past are still taxed by the empire they are part of... for example, the American colonies were taxed by the British Empire, so why can't we just deal with this situation instead of trying to get out of taxes for now. Because right now we have bigger problems like actually constructing consistent economic activity.
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Nov 21, 2010 23:23:31 GMT 10
I even have a product: “Bathtub Djinn,” wine/brandy sold in “eco-bottles” (recycled plastic bottles). Why does imagining a drink that is called "Bathtub Djinn" make my stomach revolt?
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Post by rareearth on Nov 22, 2010 6:32:43 GMT 10
Got a few questions about this... so if we use the other root why couldn't we still be taxed? Since we are in the U.S. at time of transaction, can't they tax that. In fact, can't that still tax U.S. based business who are doing business elsewhere? Secondly... a lot of new nations in the past are still taxed by the empire they are part of... for example, the American colonies were taxed by the British Empire, so why can't we just deal with this situation instead of trying to get out of taxes for now. Because right now we have bigger problems like actually constructing consistent economic activity. A good reason for a micronationalist to use or create a community currency is to be independent. Any other reason only creates a barrier between the micronation and protential economic transactions, by creating an extra tier of transactional complexity. If economics is similar to physics, this would only produce a greater possibility of economic failure, not lesser. It is a legal fact: the United States can actually force a US-incorporated business to accept its dollars, because it controls the businesses that are incorporated in the US. If you are part of their system, you have to follow their rules. However, the Cesidian Root is incorporated in the UMMOA, which is not part of the United States. If the UMMOA were part of the United States, they would have to make me Governor of that country by Presidential Proclamation, but that is about as likely to happen as the Cesidian Root paying taxes to ICANN... Not only we are not obliged to accept US dollars, but we can, in fact, create our own currency. Any micronation can, but there would be no advantage in other cases, because the transactions would still be subject to taxation (that's not legal, truth be told, but they get away with it all the time, because it is "their" Internet). The UMMOA also has its own Internet, resolving its own top-level domains, and some of these domains are even completely native to the UMMOA Internet, aka the Cesidian Root. So the burden is on the United States to prove the Cesidian Root is part of the United States, because they have to prove they have jurisdiction over our organisation and/or Internet, but it is pretty obvious that the US has no such jurisdiction, and even the ICANN's Internet is not really a part of the United States, if all the t's of the laws are fully crossed. This is another subject matter covered by something called Cesidian law. We are not not obliged to accept US dollars, and we can, in fact, create our own currency. Moreover, we don't have to follow their rules on our own native webspace. Does this mean we will have a lot of traffic of buyers/users of our currency? No. We obviously do not have as much traffic as the ICANN root has. However, this makes it pretty obvious that the US, at least in this specific case, cannot have its cake, and eat it too. The UMMOA is not a US corporation, nor is it even recognised by the United States, and our Internet is fully independent of the ICANN's Internet too. We are not trying to get out of taxes! The reality is this: the US cannot tax us on native Cesidian Root webspace anymore than we can tax them on the territory of the United States. You see, even taxes have to have some rationale, otherwise they are not taxes, but theft apparently made legitimate. You cannot make outright theft legitimate, because the customer has to get some benefit in terms of services, products, or spiritual benefits.
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Post by themicronations on Nov 22, 2010 8:57:15 GMT 10
A good reason for a micronationalist to use or create a community currency is to be independent. Any other reason only creates a barrier between the micronation and protential economic transactions, by creating an extra tier of transactional complexity. If economics is similar to physics, this would only produce a greater possibility of economic failure, not lesser. Yes it does create a barrier if and only if you only accept your currency. It would be wise for for micronational organizations to accept 1 or several micronational currencies as well as 1 or several macrnational currencies... This is just common sense to me. I don't necessarily agree that being independent is the reason to create one's own currency. Is it a reason? it probably usually is... however, currency is more of a tool than anything. You can always accept both types right? Unless a micronation is making some kind of moral decision not to accept the U.S. dollar, why wouldn't they? I don't want to make it sound like I am against micronations using the cesidian root, because I have little opinion on it yet, I simply don't know enough about it. But I am either questioning or disagreeing with some of these points is all. From what you've told me so far it sounds like its definitely worth considering, but either way you look at it we are going to need a presence on the regular internet too, which is why we have to achieve economic development here.
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Post by rareearth on Nov 22, 2010 10:50:14 GMT 10
The problem is that there are quite a few developed micronations, as I have shown above in the tables, but they are either happy with their achievements, or they don't realise that most of the potential of micronationalism lies in (sovereign) virtual space. Even cyberspace can be useful, as I have found in one particular instance, but there is no real potential in fully occupied, controlled, and/or overtaxed territorial space, even if you have a few hundred, or even a few thousand acres. With lots of land you could, of course, have potential as a farmer, particularly if you decide to grow organic or exotic vegetables, fruits, and herbs; however, that business doesn't require a micronational presence or claim. You don't have many options to claim some special territory (or structure) as your own, and to have those claims stick, your options are even more limited. There are real estate developers, and some have become very rich. I am another kind of developer, and one of the things I have to develop is an alternative Internet by attracting parties that are not currently served, or not being fully served in the ICANN's root. Because the traffic is not comparable to the default Internet everyone else uses, and because it is so much easier to just use the default Internet, rather than tinker 5 minutes with your own computer, in order to discover visually appealing and working domains like these... cesidio.tallinitime.ctni.umlong.islandummoa.islandsempress.stateslave.freeint.5wcstrd.universityrepubblica.italiana...You have to make this Internet valuable without expecting people to pay top dollar for it. This will not be facilitated by a community currency, or even by hard currency, i.e. by creating a new monopoly, or utilising old ones, but by smashing any and all existing monopolies, and in this case by creating new micronational and other kinds of TLDs, at zero or almost zero expense to user groups that have some potential as long-term customers/supporters. I really don't expect money to be worth much, or as much as it is worth now in 10 years, because quite frankly The Powers That Be have utilised money to drive people like slaves, and now they have done that for so long that they are beginning to make even the value of money questionable (most humans are morons, and such morons that even they can't help it), because you no longer can make enough money to be reasonably happy. When the scarsity of money begins to far outweight the value or utility of working for it, people will instinctively begin to seek happiness in other things, like a free Internet, in people that make you happy, in family, in good religion and/or philosophy, in good micronational communities, in simpler things, and/or in a leader who won't care about troubled global banksters and assorted political thugs, and he'll even make fun of them. Yes, as the Psalms predict, The Powers That Be (TPTB) will hate that leader like no other, and even God Almighty and his angels will laugh...
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George
Global Administrator
Head Honcho and Spangle of the Cosmos
Posts: 2,997
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Post by George on Nov 22, 2010 12:03:27 GMT 10
He's not the messiah! He's just a naughty boy!
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Post by rareearth on Nov 22, 2010 12:22:43 GMT 10
He's not the messiah! He's just a naughty boy! He can't be as naughty as Hitler, Mao, or Stalin, and yet he seems to have more power than all of them put together. ;D
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Post by Zandrovia on Nov 23, 2010 7:22:46 GMT 10
Regardless of which currency you are using, it sounds like most of this dicussion is still centering around the same old tried and failed evils of capitalism which, of course, is a direct opposition to what our nation stands for.
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Post by Lykos Packleader on Nov 25, 2010 3:08:26 GMT 10
Regardless of which currency you are using, it sounds like most of this discussion is still centering around the same old tried and failed evils of capitalism which, of course, is a direct opposition to what our nation stands for. So, if I'm getting this right, will your nation simply not deal with any state that is capitalist? If not, how will you trade with capitalists? What form of specie will you use? Is it possible that it might be a symbolic form of what you hold most dear? Or will you only deal with those nations that also agree with you? If the last is true, that would be sad, because Lykosha -- while using only barter within -- will continue to use a form of specie with nations outside its control. It's not desirable, nor even wanted for all nations to act as Lykosha does within its own borders.
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Dagostinia
Full Member
Monarchy of Dagostinia
Posts: 114
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Post by Dagostinia on Apr 14, 2011 1:42:39 GMT 10
Do you know what Yeshua Hanotzri, better known by the false name of 'Jesus of Nazareth', did to the tables of the bankers in Jerusalem back in the first century AD? Have you asked why he hated them even more than Roman taxing authorities? I suppose you are referring to when he turned over the tables in the Temple of those who were selling sacrificial goods at markup prices. But even Jesus paid taxes. See Matt 17:24ff. St. Peter caught a fish in whose mouth was a coin. That coin paid the tax. Jesus told St. Peter that He was exempt from paying the tax but He did it anyway in order to not offend. This falls in line with what St. Paul said: "I have made myself a servant to all that I might win the more." (I Corinthians 9:19) Now I'm not trying to be trite. I'm also not saying to be a wuss and cave in. But deliberately avoiding the law of the land could land you in jail and then your micronation will be despised. At best you might be seen as just another nut job. Dagostinia pays taxes to the ruling authority when due. We desire not to offend. But Dagostinia does not owe or pay one single penny to the macronation for transactions that happen within our borders. Monarch of Dagostinia
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George
Global Administrator
Head Honcho and Spangle of the Cosmos
Posts: 2,997
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Post by George on Apr 14, 2011 6:35:23 GMT 10
The reason that Yeshua bar Joseph was able to flit about Palestine preaching peace and love was that Roman arms guaranteed him the luxury of a stable civil society in which to operate.
Had he lived in 6th century Arabia, Jesus' career would have been over in about 5 seconds flat.
This simple fact goes a long way to explaining the fundamental differences between Christianity and Islam.
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Post by Zandrovia on Apr 14, 2011 7:14:28 GMT 10
Regardless of which currency you are using, it sounds like most of this discussion is still centering around the same old tried and failed evils of capitalism which, of course, is a direct opposition to what our nation stands for. So, if I'm getting this right, will your nation simply not deal with any state that is capitalist? If not, how will you trade with capitalists? What form of specie will you use? Is it possible that it might be a symbolic form of what you hold most dear? Or will you only deal with those nations that also agree with you? If the last is true, that would be sad, because Lykosha -- while using only barter within -- will continue to use a form of specie with nations outside its control. It's not desirable, nor even wanted for all nations to act as Lykosha does within its own borders. I do not know why I did not see this message before, but in response to your question, while certainly in the beginning we will have to deal with unfortunate economic issues of the capitalist world to acquire land, materials, and the essentials to begin with our ultimate goal is simply to be left alone. Our aims are to be as self sufficient as possible and to import goods that are only absolutely necessary and then we will be very,very particular about which nations and companies we choose to get those goods from (they will have to meet certain standards). At that point of course we will welcome trade with other nations, especially among our artisans, but will have no interest in "doing business" with anyone beyond what is absolutely essential or what is beneficial from a cultural, environmental, and educational perspective. We may have a dual economy for visitors to use within our borders which will help provide funds for essential imports.
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