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Post by commiczar on Mar 20, 2009 2:17:21 GMT 10
Greetings to All !!
General Information:
I'm curious as to which members' micronations are of "real-earth", and which members' micronations are "sim" micronations ??
Since many of the micronations shown on the "List of Micronations" do not show a link to their micronation's websites, and since I'm unfamiliar with many of the micronations listed, I thought that I would post this question.
I'm sure that there are many others who would also like to know.
ThanX !!
Regards !! ________
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George
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Post by George on Mar 20, 2009 3:28:36 GMT 10
The list of micronations will soon be divided into "virtual" and "non-virtual" sections.
I'm defining as "virtual" any micronation whose entire existence has been conducted exclusively in the digital domain.
"Non-virtual" is defined as any micronation whose operations have had some physical aspect or projection into the real world at some stage in its existence.
If a micronation "claims" land - even if it's a humorous or ridiculous non-credible undersea, interplanetary or similar "claim", it is "non-virtual".
If a micronation has produced physical artfects (stamps, coins, banknotes, medals, passports, flags, license plates), books etc in commercial quantities, for commercial sale, via industrial processes (ie not 1-off hand-drawn items), it is "non-virtual".
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igor
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Post by igor on Mar 20, 2009 5:43:16 GMT 10
When it comes to the CKK, it is definitely the simulation of a sovereign state, even though there are real citizens, so that it is not entirely dedicated to the "digital world" (so to speak). In addition, for instance, Kelterspruf supports sustainable development campaigns and such social activity cannot be limited to the virtual reality. Regards, Igor
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George
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Post by George on Mar 20, 2009 9:53:42 GMT 10
As I see it a "virtual" micronation can be either
1. a complete fantasy (usually involving only one "real" person play-acting the role of head of state) where everything from the planet it's located on right down to its population, infrastructure, resources and intermicronational relations are imaginary.
OR
2. a partial or simulated fantasy, where a group of real people adopt the personas of a group of imaginary characters, and interact with each other "in persona", electronically, within the context of an imaginary country and its legislative strictures.
The Kingdom of Hanover is possibly the best example of the latter. I understand they now conduct many of their activities via the medium of Second Life, where "in persona" interactions can take on a semblance of theatrical authenticity due to the graphical virtual 3-D environment.
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George
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Post by George on Mar 20, 2009 10:41:41 GMT 10
I'm curious as to which members' micronations are of "real-earth", and which members' micronations are "sim" micronations ? OK, I'll go first... Atlantium (see Claudio, I said it! the therapy is working!) is in the real-earth/physical geography column. However, it took us 26 years to progress from an initial urban geographical footprint of barely 6 sq metres, to one of 61 square metres, and finally to the current 0.76 sq kilometre (0.3 sq mile) largely pastoral footprint. More about the geography of present-day Atlantium can be found here.
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igor
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Post by igor on Mar 21, 2009 5:39:14 GMT 10
2. a partial or simulated fantasy, where a group of real people adopt the personas of a group of imaginary characters, and interact with each other "in persona", electronically, within the context of an imaginary country and its legislative strictures. Such a description makes me think about e-RPG. BTW, in CKK, a journalist is graduated in Journalism, a lawyer is graduated in Law and so forth; unless that we talk about actors and actresses who represent characters in stage plays, even though there is currently no theatrical performer in CKK. One may argue that CKK is more related to NGOs than micronations since it has sustainable development proposals as well as a human rights-oriented community, albeit the definition of "micronation" is really subject to wide debate. Regards, Igor Kelterspruf
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claudre
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Post by claudre on Mar 21, 2009 14:01:32 GMT 10
I'm curious as to which members' micronations are of "real-earth", and which members' micronations are "sim" micronations ? OK, I'll go first... Atlantium (see Claudio, I said it! the therapy is working!) is in the real-earth/physical geography column. However, it took us 26 years to progress from an initial urban geographical footprint of barely 6 sq metres, to one of 61 square metres, and finally to the current 0.76 sq kilometre (0.3 sq mile) largely pastoral footprint. More about the geography of present-day Atlantium can be found here. I told you it could be cured !! LOL Yours,
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claudre
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Post by claudre on Mar 21, 2009 14:08:21 GMT 10
Greetings to All !! General Information: I'm curious as to which members' micronations are of "real-earth", and which members' micronations are "sim" micronations ?? Since many of the micronations shown on the "List of Micronations" do not show a link to their micronation's websites, and since I'm unfamiliar with many of the micronations listed, I thought that I would post this question. I'm sure that there are many others who would also like to know. ThanX !! Regards !! ________ Well... Réunion claims the islands of Mauritius and Reunion, which are located East of Madagascar. However, we are NOT serious about getting real independence from France, and use that territory as a reference to our activities of political exercise, society simulation and self-improvement. The desire of Réunians to interact with ALL KINDS of micronations made our Imperial Council pass a law authorizing us to become member of "virtual cartographic organizations" _AS_WELL_ (not only). That means that we will also claim virtual territories if this is a condition to become part of a group of micronations such as OIK, Micras, UMMOA, etc. Réunion is really into INTERACTION WITH OTHER NATIONS, as a State policy. Unfortunately most of our citizens do not care about diplomacy. Of almost 90 VERY ACTIVE subjects, only 17 are involved with our Imperial Chancellery. Also, Réunion is issuing BANK NOTES, PASSPORTS and a COMMEMORATIVE COIN this year, and we have already produced DECALCS (we have SOOOOO many kinds) and desk-flags, as well as big flags too. In addition to this, Reunians that are veterans, are organizing to form a Foundation, to be created accordingly to the brazilian laws, which would promote micronationalism as a hobby and enriching activity, and the Réunian way of being a micronationalist. All the copyrights of Réunian symbols and all will be donated by myself to that Foundation. Yours
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claudre
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Post by claudre on Mar 21, 2009 14:10:05 GMT 10
When it comes to the CKK, it is definitely the simulation of a sovereign state, even though there are real citizens, so that it is not entirely dedicated to the "digital world" (so to speak). In addition, for instance, Kelterspruf supports sustainable development campaigns and such social activity cannot be limited to the virtual reality. Regards, Igor Sir Igor! Greetings, My friend!! Where have you been?? Do you have MSN? I really need to talk to you. Yours
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Post by sogoln on Mar 21, 2009 19:47:46 GMT 10
Réunion claims the islands of Mauritius and Reunion, which are located East of Madagascar. And where we, Formoris, already have a colony... ;D
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Mar 21, 2009 21:04:06 GMT 10
The Republic of Talossa is claiming some parts of the City of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA, which are already inhabited by "Cestoûrs" (people of a different nationality who are not aware of their dwelling on Talossan ground), and the uninhabited island of Cézembre, located near St. Malo, France. As a puny little peaceful nationette we are not going to enforce our claims any time soon.
Many Talossans are living in the diaspora; we are trying to overcome our seperation and isolation by telephone talks and real meetings. Talossa has produced many material and immaterial artefacts, such as printable magazines, anthems, a very elaborate constructed language, etc.
Presently a sash for our President is in the making. We want to create a gallery of all our Presidents, past, present and future, with this sash on. This is one measure amongst others to overcome our depending on the virtual space of the internet.
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igor
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Post by igor on Mar 22, 2009 4:45:44 GMT 10
Sirr Igor! Greetings, My friend!! Where have you been?? Do you have MSN? I really need to talk to you. Hi Claudio! Well, I was born in Rio de Janeiro-RJ, although I have been in Vila Velha-ES. Glad to hear from you again! BTW, I will PM you about Kelterspruf and other news ASAP. Regards, Igor Kelterspruf
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Post by Rex TorHavn on Mar 22, 2009 4:46:33 GMT 10
Actually, TorHavn doesn't yet own property, but our declaration of sovereignty has been recognized by the Umatilla Amerindians (somehow, I saw this on one of their forums)... this is amazing to me.
Although we have 38 citizens, most join, participate for a few months, and then move into a cocoon where they neither participate nor communicate. Then, every once in a while, they write, and "wonder" why nothing is done yet. I suspect that until we do have land (?)very little concrete will be accomplished (unless it's done by the "first citizens").
Our real intentions, so far, is to eventually create an intentional community of some sort, in Central or North California, where ecology & the Living Earth come first. We were even involved in the 2003 United Nations Sustainability Project (as an organization). Baby steps for now... we neither consider ourselves simulationist, nor virtual.
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Post by commiczar on Mar 22, 2009 7:27:44 GMT 10
Actually, TorHavn doesn't yet own property, but our declaration of sovereignty has been recognized by the Umatilla Amerindians (somehow, I saw this on one of their forums)... this is amazing to me. Although we have 38 citizens, most join, participate for a few months, and then move into a cocoon where they neither participate nor communicate. Then, every once in a while, they write, and "wonder" why nothing is done yet. I suspect that until we do have land (?)very little concrete will be accomplished (unless it's done by the "first citizens"). Our real intentions, so far, is to eventually create an intentional community of some sort, in Central or North California, where ecology & the Living Earth come first. We were even involved in the 2003 United Nations Sustainability Project (as an organization). Baby steps for now... we neither consider ourselves simulationist, nor virtual. Greetings !! Your mention of "intentional community" pressed me to state that over the past years, from time-to-time, several members of the Imperial Family, and Officers and Officials of the Imperial Government, of the Imperium of DeWaCo Estates, have had very cordial visits and relations with such a community known as: "Dancing Rabbit"; which is a very active ecovillage and intentional community, located in rural northeastern Missouri. Visit the Ecovillage and Intentional Community of Dancing Rabbit Over the years the MicroGovt of the Imperium of DeWaCo Estates has opened up communications, and conducted "State Visits" and "Fact Finding Missions", with many similar projects and communities; all in hopes of exchanging views and ideas, which we could eventually incorporate into the Imperium's Dream. Such projects and communities are a very vital and valuable type of sub-culture; which mimic a majority of many of the ideas and ideals of a micronation....many with their own currencies, rules / laws, school system, security system, communal / collective rights, etc, etc, etc.... ( a great stepping-stone towards some degree of self-sovereignty ) Good luck with your vision !! Regards !! ________
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Post by davidv on May 12, 2009 18:26:56 GMT 10
I would classify micronations into the following categories: Territorial secessionist micronations- those entities that not only claim to have separated from a larger macronational entity, but also exercise actual control over the claimed territory- in other words actual ownership of property. Hutt River, Sealand and Molossia fit into this category, as does Seborga. These micronations, by virtue of territorial ownership, are also able to have an economy- and Hutt River's is quite diversified with wildflower sales and tourism among its income sources.
Simulationist micronations- may not always claim territory but seek to simulate real-world political structures.
Community micronations- Some micronations are really awkward to classify. Talossa is the best example of this- it is on one hand defined by its geography and absorbs the cultural traits of that geography, defining its culture and identity to varying degrees- but is on the other hand considered a political simulation with a worldwide membership base. The best classification for such, and many in the "simulationist" category is as community micronations. Because they are more than mere simulations but communities with developed societies and cultures. Aerican Empire and Reunion also belong in the community category.
Mission specific micronations- this is where Atlantium and Torhavn are classified. Because these two have a specific mission and work towards that stated mission.
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George
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Post by George on May 13, 2009 8:10:34 GMT 10
I don't see your system as particularly workable.
Hutt River and Sealand are attempts (however flawed and ramshackle) at propagating acts of legal secession, whereas Molossia is merely a one-man tongue-in-cheek performance art project.
Lumping them together simply because their founders have posession of physical geography (leaving aside whether Sealand's sunken barge constitutes "geography" or not) makes no sense.
To my mind it's really only practical to classify micronations based on whether they have any physical existence at all - or whether they exist entirely in the virtual sphere.
If a micronation falls into the "physical" column, the facts of its physical existence (population, land area, production of artefacts, nature, frequency and conduct of physical interactions between its members), can then be used to determine where on the sliding scale of "reality" it actually sits.
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Post by Rex TorHavn on May 13, 2009 8:13:15 GMT 10
Sir: Actually, We rather enjoy the below classifications: those micronations who create art or culture, without becoming a community, might still be classified as a community… as a subset, perhaps. Unfortunately, those who are criminal or questionable would still be semi-classified as a “mission-specific micronation,” even though We personally abhore being even minimally associated with them. You can easily find these on the Micro-Freedom Index, managed & created by Steven Scharf. We thank you. --- HM Casimir Skyhunter Kingdom of TorHavn I would classify micronations into the following categories: Territorial secessionist micronations- those entities that not only claim to have separated from a larger macronational entity, but also exercise actual control over the claimed territory- in other words actual ownership of property. Hutt River, Sealand and Molossia fit into this category, as does Seborga. These micronations, by virtue of territorial ownership, are also able to have an economy- and Hutt River's is quite diversified with wildflower sales and tourism among its income sources. Simulationist micronations- may not always claim territory but seek to simulate real-world political structures. Community micronations- Some micronations are really awkward to classify. Talossa is the best example of this- it is on one hand defined by its geography and absorbs the cultural traits of that geography, defining its culture and identity to varying degrees- but is on the other hand considered a political simulation with a worldwide membership base. The best classification for such, and many in the "simulationist" category is as community micronations. Because they are more than mere simulations but communities with developed societies and cultures. Aerican Empire and Reunion also belong in the community category. Mission specific micronations- this is where Atlantium and Torhavn are classified. Because these two have a specific mission and work towards that stated mission.
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Chas Jago
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Post by Chas Jago on May 13, 2009 8:51:46 GMT 10
Looking at the posts above, I find it alittle hard to classify Alteria in any area.
Alteria is a virtual nation, as we are currrently based online, but this is because its a communication medium we all use, but we are in the process of forming an offline section of Alteria called the "Alterian Project" who's purpose is Environmental in nature. We are also in the process of creating a new flag which will be actually produced, but we do not claim land, although in saying that we wont turn it down if its offered. ;D We hope to form an identity around what it is to be Alterian.
We once has as many as 30 odd citizens, but now we have 3
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George
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Post by George on May 13, 2009 9:38:58 GMT 10
I would presently classify Alteria as a non-physical micronation, because it exists solely in a virtual context.
Were it to produce a physical artefact such as a flag, it would be reclassified as a physical micronation - at the entry-level end of the scale.
If it then began to function more actively in the real world - for example by issuing press releases, organising conferences attended by its members or others, producing multiples of other physical artefacts such as stamps, coins, banknotes and passports, setting up a physical office with a published street address and phone number, establishing itself as a registered charitable organisation with a bank account with real money in it etc - then it would progressively move up the "reality scale".
The crucial detail with any system of classification is that it must be objective and universal.
As a consequence, under my system micronations are assessed and classified based on what they actually are today - not what they state, hope, plan or intend to be at some unspecified future juncture.
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Chas Jago
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Post by Chas Jago on May 13, 2009 10:41:57 GMT 10
Alteria has previously found creating a flag to be a rather expensive feat, we had originally sent our plans and images for the flag to several companies in New Zealand and Australia only to be met with quotes in excess of $400NZD for a single copy. we are however looking into other companies who are capable of producing for a much cheaper cost. EDIT: Just had a new quote done by a new company, $180NZD including delivery. Quote from : www.the-flag-makers.com
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Post by shadowdarkfyre on May 13, 2009 15:43:59 GMT 10
Actually, TorHavn doesn't yet own property, but our declaration of sovereignty has been recognized by the Umatilla Amerindians (somehow, I saw this on one of their forums)... this is amazing to me. Although we have 38 citizens, most join, participate for a few months, and then move into a cocoon where they neither participate nor communicate. Then, every once in a while, they write, and "wonder" why nothing is done yet. I suspect that until we do have land (?)very little concrete will be accomplished (unless it's done by the "first citizens"). Our real intentions, so far, is to eventually create an intentional community of some sort, in Central or North California, where ecology & the Living Earth come first. We were even involved in the 2003 United Nations Sustainability Project (as an organization). Baby steps for now... we neither consider ourselves simulationist, nor virtual. The Domain and Realms takes the same stance on this.
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igor
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Post by igor on Jun 2, 2009 0:30:48 GMT 10
I would presently classify Alteria as a non-physical micronation, because it exists solely in a virtual context. Were it to produce a physical artefact such as a flag, it would be reclassified as a physical micronation - at the entry-level end of the scale. CKK has already a small cloth flag, even though we definitely face micronationalism as a hobby. Regards, Igor Kelterspruf
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claudre
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Post by claudre on Jun 9, 2009 14:02:06 GMT 10
Greetings to All !! General Information: I'm curious as to which members' micronations are of "real-earth", and which members' micronations are "sim" micronations ?? Since many of the micronations shown on the "List of Micronations" do not show a link to their micronation's websites, and since I'm unfamiliar with many of the micronations listed, I thought that I would post this question. I'm sure that there are many others who would also like to know. ThanX !! Regards !! ________ Greetings! Réunion is originally a REAL EARTH micronation. But.... Since we have made friendships with so many simulated worlds micronationalists, we decided to become.....HYBRID So, Réunion is at the same time in the Real World, on the Micras Map, on the OPM map, on the OIK map and on a few other maps too!!! :-) We are into everything that is micronational, I like to say! Yours, Claudio de Castro
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