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Post by commiczar on Jul 29, 2009 1:27:53 GMT 10
Greetings to All !! NOTE: ( Personal Opinion & Observation ) This topic is NOT...I repeat...NOT...an attempt to discount anyone's lack of experience due to one's lack of number of years living; but is instead, and attempt to discuss and debate why it is.....that *some* of the younger people of the world think that they have all of the answers to the world's problems; especially since *most* ( not all ) have yet to experience some of the most difficult problems associated with life and living. With that disclaimer in mind: How many members have life experiences that include the following: - Killed another human being during war ( or peace ) ?
- Raised a Family...Children and Grandchildren ??
- Owned and operated a business ?
- Received a degree of higher education ?
- Managed a debt over 1 millions dollars ( US ) ?
- Managed an investment portfolio of over 1 million dollars ( US ) ?
- Traveled to other "macro" countries and cultures ?
- Be "interviewed" by major "macro" authorities ?
- Served in a "macro" military ?
- Served as a juror in a case of murder ?
- Been shot @...during war ( or peace) ?
- Survived a life-threatening illness and/or surgery ??
- Etc, etc, etc, etc......
When one can state that he or she has done some / most / all of the above, then is when one has some personal "capital to spend". Here again, this topic does NOT diminish youth in any manner; merely expressing a well known fact....that....too-too many of the immature people associated with micronationalism are so quick at "solving" a major problem, or worse still....too quick at criticising another's views, and achievements, or sacrifices made for the greater good / common cause of others; which is unfounded, as life experience is one of the major ingrediants necessary to form just and well grounded decisions....especially if the decision has a direct-connect to anyone else. ( i.e. "Walk a Mile in Another's Well Worn Shoes" ) ( paraphrased of course ) Regards to All !! _____________
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Jul 29, 2009 6:20:10 GMT 10
It's up to the young people to come up with untested new ideas and to annoy the shit out of the old experienced ones, and then to take their ideas to the reality check until they're growing old and experienced themselves, too.
But "micronationalism" possibly isn't a field that is deeply rooted in reality - at least internet based micronationalism as we know it rarely is. Maybe we should discuss the possible impact of a political or philosophical micronationalism on reality, and the ask ourselves if founding a little bathtubbia is really a solution for big real problems, or just escapism.
I guess everybody, no matter how old or young in years spent on this earth, may be able to give a mature answer to this question.
As for the experiences on your list, I made some of these, but they might be overrated. Like surgery and life threatening illnesses and all that jazz. The important thing is to be able to crawl out of the tarpit and to rearrange one's life, but that's a different topic now.
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Post by commiczar on Jul 29, 2009 6:31:06 GMT 10
It's up to the young people [/size] to come up with untested new ideas and to annoy the shit out of the old experienced ones,[/size] and then to take their ideas to the reality check until they're growing old and experienced themselves, too. But "micronationalism" possibly isn't a field that is deeply rooted in reality - at least internet based micronationalism as we know it rarely is. Maybe we should discuss the possible impact of a political or philosophical micronationalism on reality, and the ask ourselves if founding a little bathtubbia is really a solution for big real problems, or just escapism. I guess everybody, no matter how old or young in years spent on this earth, may be able to give a mature answer to this question. As for the experiences on your list, I made some of these, but they might be overrated. Like surgery and life threatening illnesses and all that jazz. The important thing is to be able to crawl out of the tarpit and to rearrange one's life, but that's a different topic now.[/quote] Amen...and...Agreed...you've hit the nail on the head there !! ;D ( not necessarily a good thing mind you.....just the way the world works I guess ) ;D
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Jul 29, 2009 7:30:12 GMT 10
If I had to apply a meaningful choice of typefaces, it would look like that:
It's up to the young people to come up with untested new ideas and to annoy the shit out of the old experienced ones, and then to take their ideas to the reality check until they're growing old and experienced themselves, too.
:-)
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George
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Post by George on Jul 29, 2009 10:00:28 GMT 10
Getting shot at and nearly dying from an illness or accident take no particular skill - although those experiences may well give one a greater appreciation for the fragility of life.
I would add:
1. Getting elected to public office 2. Being elected or appointed to the board of a major corporation 3. Active participation in a community organisation
Adolescents generally see the world in simple black & white terms, and are hard-wired for risk, and for knee-jerk reactions; these are natural functions of the developing human brain. It's also why it's so easy to manipulate them.
Most of those who survive adolescence grow into adults with a capacity for rational, objective thought.
Those that don't used to end up in asylums. Now we mostly just let them eke out an existence "in the community" (ie, on the streets).
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Post by commiczar on Jul 29, 2009 10:10:56 GMT 10
Getting shot at and nearly dying from an illness or accident take no particular skill - although those experiences may well give one a greater appreciation for the fragility of life. I would add: 1. Getting elected to public office 2. Being elected or appointed to the board of a major corporation 3. Active participation in a community organisation[/size] Adolescents generally see the world in simple black & white terms, and are hard-wired for risk, and for knee-jerk reactions; these are natural functions of the developing human brain. It's also why it's so easy to manipulate them. Most of those who survive adolescence grow into adults with a capacity for rational, objective thought. Those that don't used to end up in asylums. Now we mostly just let them eke out an existence "in the community" (ie, on the streets).[/quote] All three are excellent examples which could be added to the list.....
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George
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Post by George on Jul 29, 2009 10:21:46 GMT 10
Further to near-death experiences, I was caught in a rip and nearly drowned while on holiday in Queensland when I was 22.
I don't think the experience has had any impact on my life at all - other than giving me a direct appreciation of the awesome power of the sea.
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Post by commiczar on Jul 29, 2009 11:00:29 GMT 10
Further to near-death experiences, I was caught in a rip and nearly drowned while on holiday in Queensland when I was 22. I don't think the experience has had any impact on my life at all - other than giving me a direct appreciation of the awesome power of the sea. Such experiences adds years to one's age....and increases one's blood pressure; which is why I feel too old at times, and why my blood pressure is way-way too high as well.
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George
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Post by George on Jul 29, 2009 13:00:21 GMT 10
Your blood pressure is way way too high because you're a regular contributor to this forum.
;D
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Post by indigo on Jul 29, 2009 13:23:56 GMT 10
How many members have life experiences that include the following:
Killed another human being during war ( or peace ) ? Thank goodness no! The closest I came to that was when I had a car accident after falling asleep at the wheel. A lady with her two little girls was in front of me, but fate made me bang her bumper perhaps only once or twice, and then I veered off the road. I'm so grateful nothing happened to the girls and the woman (other than extreme fright).
Raised a Family...Children and Grandchildren ?? No. I have sponsored a Vietnamese child through Childreach, however, and I do act like a second parent with my nieces, since their mother is far away, and otherwise engaged with another man.
Owned and operated a business ? I guess the Cesidian Root is the closest thing to that, but it has not been a moneymaker so far.
Received a degree of higher education ? Yes, an accredited BS, an unaccredited BSc, and an honorary PhD, which was made a little more legit with a citation added by a New York Senator.
Managed a debt over 1 millions dollars ( US ) ? No. I do have significant debt I'm trying to take care of, however.
Managed an investment portfolio of over 1 million dollars ( US ) ? No.
Traveled to other "macro" countries and cultures ? Yes. Lived in Italy for 11 years. Landed in Lisbon, Portugal once too. Been to Washington, DC (that's a foreign country to me).
Be "interviewed" by major "macro" authorities ? I was interviewed by journalists, but not by major authorities.
Served in a "macro" military ? I was two months at Parris Island, but that was nothing compared to war.
Served as a juror in a case of murder ? Was called for jury duty, but never served so far.
Been shot @...during war ( or peace) ? No, thank goodness!
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Post by indigo on Jul 29, 2009 14:13:38 GMT 10
More about life experiences. How many of you... - Killed a deer or other large mammal for sport and/or venison.
- Learned to speak a foreign language (which could be English if it's not one's mother tongue.
- Authored a book.
- Patented or independently developed anything significant.
- Has developed formulas or mathematical ideas which you have not seen elsewhere.
- Earned a secondary school educational diploma more than once (from two or more different countries).
- Is an actual citizen of two or more nation-states.
- Witnessed a crime (like a theft or murder), and managed to get the criminal arrested.
- Was legally ordained.
- Is licenced for something other than driving a car (a commercial licence can be included, since it is a superior licence).
- Is certified or accredited for something.
- Has suffered the sudden loss of loved one who was not old (e.g., a parent, a sibling, or a spouse/prospective spouse)
- Had an experience which could be or was qualified as paranormal by a paranormal authority.
- Believe conventional medicine, economics, or some other so-called science is actually a pseudoscience.
- Believe in God.
- Believe in a God which is something other than nature, the universe, and something closer to what you look like.
- Believe natural science has authority over all other interpretations of life, such as philosophical, religious, mythical, spiritual, or humanistic explanations (you are a believer in scientism).
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Jul 29, 2009 17:50:50 GMT 10
I'm speaking more than one foreign languages, wrote two or three books (of which only the possibly third book was a success - my diploma thesis), painted pictures and sold some of them, made music and appeared on a vinyl record (that is, some third party found that it is worthwile to publish said music), etc.
As for you list, I wonder if believing in deities is a distinctive experience or skill, which indicates that a person has overcome their "apprentice years". I will not debate that it may or may not be an experience / skill that helps people to grow more mature; though my point is that even very young and unexperienced persons can believe, possibly even better and more honestly than older people. After all, because of a lack of experience, they have to believe. For example, it's crucial to believe that sticking a finger into a 230 Volts power outlet can be lethal.
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Post by indigo on Jul 30, 2009 7:51:59 GMT 10
Lord Imperator's questions relate directly to his personal life experiences. He happens to have a few life experiences to mention because he is an older fellow with a lot of life experience, both good and bad. My questions also relate directly to my personal life except the last one: I am not a believer in scientism, but I have met quite a few who seem to be, sometimes without realising their "religion" is no different from Galileo's religion. I believe in God, in a merodepantheistic God to be more precise... cesidian.org/merodepantheism.html...so that question related to me as well. If I were an atheist, perhaps I would be more interested in how many here are atheists, but I am not an atheist. If I were a woman, perhaps the question of how many people here are married, or engaged to be married would be interesting to me, but I am not a woman. On a personal level, I can say I believe in an odd sort of deity, and in fact, as a Cesidian I believe that I myself am a deity, at least a deity in miniature. So I just don't simply believe in some distant God; I also believe in myself. I can also say don't believe Galileo's religion is a true religion. In fact, it appears that the scientific method, while powerful with things that are less complicated than, or inferior to, human beings, seems pretty useless with regard to humans. We have become great masters of what there is to know about physics and chemistry, but our knowledge of biology, especially human biology, is quite rudimentary, and the social sciences are no more rigourous than Cesidianism, my religion. Put more briefly, I believe the Pope is not infallible, but I also believe that the scientific method is not infallible.
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George
Global Administrator
Head Honcho and Spangle of the Cosmos
Posts: 2,997
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Post by George on Jul 30, 2009 8:54:41 GMT 10
Science is not a religion.
Science explains reality.
Religion assumes unreality, and then tries to explain it.
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Post by indigo on Jul 30, 2009 14:08:49 GMT 10
Science is not a religion. Science explains reality. Religion posits unreality. That's how a believer in scientism would put it, George. And that is your religion, what you believe in as much as a fundamentalist believes in the inerrancy of the Bible. That is not my belief. I know what the field of "unreality" looks like, since analytic theology shows that. You are incurring into error without even realising it, because you are confusing a part of religion for the entire positive eQ axis. You are also confusing a part of science for the entire negative eQ axis. You are ignoring the primitive (and fallible) science that was developed before Descartes' method. Einstein once said, "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." He was actually right! Science and reason steer you in the right direction, while religion and faith simply keep propelling you forward. Einstein also said something else few people know about: "The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge." As my first book goes on to prove: "So first we start with the possibility ( δυνατόν or dunaton) of rational interpretation, which leads to the choice ( αίρεσις or hairesis) of rational heresy. The choice ( αίρεσις or hairesis) of rational heresy, in turn, ultimately leads to the actuality ( ενέργεια or energeia) of rational knowledge, which is Einstein's definition of spiritual or religious fulfilment." The actuality of rational knowledge always starts with a rational interpretation, which is ultimately an act of faith with a little reasonableness about it. You are looking at good science like it is some destination, when in reality it is a continuous journey. An experiment, designed to verify the validity of your interpretation, only shows that it is a plausible interpretation. The experiment is not final proof as a mathematical theorem is final proof. The science produced by the scientific method is, at best, the current best approximation of reality, not your absolute explanation of reality. The experiment certifies the hypothesis. It does not make the hypothesis the only possible explanation, nor does it make the hypothesis certainly true. Karl Popper has written, "The method of the social sciences, like that of the natural sciences, consists in trying out tentative solutions to those problems from which our investigations start". According to Popper, all science follows the following pattern: P1 → TT → EE → P2 That is, science begins with a problem (P 1), and then a tentative theory (TT) is proposed to solve it. Next, the theory is tested, and an effort is made to eliminate errors (EE) in the theory. Following the error elimination a new problem emerges (P 2), and then the process starts all over again. Basically science works like this recursive algorithm: where n ≥ 3
and pn = n[tan(180/n)]
pn = 5.19, 4, 3.63, 3.46, 3.37, 3.31, 3.28, 3.25, . . . π So as n approaches infinity, p n approaches the value of the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter, which is approximately 3.1415926535897932384626433832795. . . and better known as pi. Please note that one has to reach the value of n = 36 in order to produce a value of pi accurate to three digits (3.14), so the convergence to the value of pi is not exactly fast. Well, just as there are formulas that converge to pi more quickly, there are also, very probably, more efficient methods of exploring nature than through the scientific method.
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George
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Post by George on Jul 30, 2009 14:23:33 GMT 10
It's not a matter of subjective interpretation.
Modern science, in only a few hundred years, has developed plausible evidence-based explanations for the observable (and increasingly, unobservable) phenomena that collectively constitute the only reality that we are aware of - the tangible one which we inhabit. Belief is simply not part of the scientific equation; it is entirely unneccessary to "believe" something the existence of which has compelling evidentiary support.
Religion vociferously claims that other unobservable, intangible realities exist - and has concocted literally thousands of systems describing the machinations of those realities and their supposed denizens (often in minute, embarassingly vastly contradictory detail) - yet over tens of thousands of years, no religion has ever put forward a single iota of evidence to support those irrational and counter-intuitive beliefs.
Those are the facts of history.
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Post by indigo on Jul 30, 2009 15:31:25 GMT 10
I am not disputing that science has been relatively successful, but have you noticed at what price? The population of the planet, and the pollution, has also exploded, thanks in good part to science, and may end up endangering even human life.
I don't think you are recognising this, as other positivists don't. You are living in a never never land of genuinely unrealistic expectation. You act like in modifying nature, you don't eventually end up undermining the very systems you are trying to study.
I am also not disputing that a lot of religion is idiotic. However, you are also overgeneralising. Buddhism is not so negative, and it is relatively ancient. Real Christianity also, as Yeshua thought about it, not Paul (Saul) of Tarsus, is also very positive and empathetic.
There are also more rational, more ethical systems or philosophies, and Cesidianism is one of them. Plus Cesidianism is beginning to explain things, while science actually explains very little.
You are no less arrogant about science than the Pope was about religion in Galileo's time. This is not interpretation. This is a fact. You also choose to ignore the perils of scientism, which neither produce genuinely good science in the long run, nor ethical behaviour.
Lord Acton once wrote, "Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely". You don't seem to understand that these are times when one should be critical of science, not celebratory, because its power has made scientists arrogant and unethical.
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George
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Post by George on Jul 30, 2009 16:44:25 GMT 10
What price?
In the present day, more people are living safer, healthier, longer, more comfortable, more productive, more leisure-filled, more personally self-fulfilling lives than at any time in the last 2 million years.
Barely 100 years ago our great grandparents could not be having this conversation because they'd likely be working 12-14 hour days down a mine or in an inner-city factory deathtrap, 6 days a week - before going home to a dimly lit hovel stinking of kerosene for a family meal, possibly followed by some reading (if they were lucky enough to own a book or 2, and if they didn't suffer from cataracts by age 40), followed by bed. And if they were lucky, they might hope to live to 60.
How easily we forget just how nasty, brutish, tedious and short life was within the living memory of our most immediate ancestors!
...and still we have prophets of doom wailing and gnashing their teeth, and dreaming up idiotic conspiracies to explain how "awful" and "degraded" the human condition has supposedly become.
What rot!
Yes, there are certainly also a lot of people still living and dying in extreme poverty and outright misery, and yes, our civilisation faces serious climate and resource-related challenges - but when those problems are solved (and they will be), they will be solved by human beings applying rational thought and good science - not because some deity gets over their bad hair century, climbs down off their golden sky-chariot and does it for us.
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Post by commiczar on Jul 31, 2009 1:46:40 GMT 10
[/color] [/li][li] Learned to speak a foreign language (which could be English if it's not one's mother tongue. Not Well: Spanish / Vietnamese / "Pig Latin" [/color] [/li][li] Authored a book. Not a book, but poetry published HS & College / several books in the works[/color] [/li][li] Patented or independently developed anything significant. No US or International Patents: "Jimmy-Rigged" many machinery[/color] [/li][li] Has developed formulas or mathematical ideas which you have not seen elsewhere. No...to count means international / universal acceptance[/color] [/li][li] Earned a secondary school educational diploma more than once (from two or more different countries). Not 2...only one ( major & minor ) from the "foreign" nation of the USA[/color] [/li][li] Is an actual citizen of two or more nation-states. Yes: the Imperium and the USA[/color] [/li][li] Witnessed a crime (like a theft or murder), and managed to get the criminal arrested. Yes: some turned over to local "macro" authorities, others we took care of[/color] [/li][li] Was legally ordained. No[/color] [/li][li] Is licenced for something other than driving a car (a commercial licence can be included, since it is a superior licence). Yes: Commercial License / no longer authorized to fly a plane[/color] [/li][li] Is certified or accredited for something. Yes[/color] [/li][li] Has suffered the sudden loss of loved one who was not old (e.g., a parent, a sibling, or a spouse/prospective spouse) Yes: Second Child "still-born"...comrades in Vietnam War[/color] [/li][li] Had an experience which could be or was qualified as paranormal by a paranormal authority. Yes: witnessed a UFO / USO / time-shift[/color] [/li][li] Believe conventional medicine, economics, or some other so-called science is actually a pseudoscience. / corrupt yes...not necessarily pseudo[/color] [/li][li] Believe in God. YES[/color] [/li][li] Believe in a God which is something other than nature, the universe, and something closer to what you look like. ?....NO...I am NOT GOD ( least wise...I don't think so )[/color] [/li][li] Believe natural science has authority over all other interpretations of life, such as philosophical, religious, mythical, spiritual, or humanistic explanations (you are a believer in scientism). NO[/color][/li][/ul][/quote] _________________________________________________
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Post by commiczar on Jul 31, 2009 1:58:27 GMT 10
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Post by Jason Mckerra on Aug 1, 2009 10:38:29 GMT 10
The warre of every man against every man...
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Post by Bokonton on Aug 1, 2009 21:26:15 GMT 10
Adolescents generally see the world in simple black & white terms, and are hard-wired for risk, and for knee-jerk reactions; these are natural functions of the developing human brain. It's also why it's so easy to manipulate them. I think you need to take a look at a few more adolescents. Or at least, not just the idiotic ones ;D. --- Ephebiphobia?
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claudre
Administrator
Rei de Samba
Posts: 128
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Post by claudre on Aug 2, 2009 0:55:43 GMT 10
Here I Go: [/li][li] Killed another human being during war ( or peace ) ? Yes. Killed a burglar running him over with a car, 1998. [/li][li] Raised a Family...Children and Grandchildren ?? Nope. Just married for 5 years. [/li][li] Owned and operated a business ? Yes. www.sergiocastro.com.br A leading real estate company in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Inherited. STill operating, with 130 employees. [/li][li] Received a degree of higher education ? Lawyer. [/li][li] Managed a debt over 1 millions dollars ( US ) ? :-) Managed and paid a 4 million dollars debt. That got me 50 kilos fatter. [/li][li] Managed an investment portfolio of over 1 million dollars ( US ) ? Yes. [/li][li] Traveled to other "macro" countries and cultures ? Only America, Canada and Uruguay. [/li][li] Be "interviewed" by major "macro" authorities ? What do you mean macro authorities? [/li][li] Served in a "macro" military ? No. Ran away from that, actually. [/li][li] Served as a juror in a case of murder ? No. [/li][li] Been shot @...during war ( or peace) ? Yes, but they missed. (bullet proof car) [/li][li] Survived a life-threatening illness and/or surgery ?? No. That was fun. More!
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claudre
Administrator
Rei de Samba
Posts: 128
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Post by claudre on Aug 2, 2009 1:04:24 GMT 10
Here I go Again! - Killed a deer or other large mammal for sport and/or venison.
Never. I am an animal-lover. Killed a bird once. And a cat. Doñ´pt ask.
- Learned to speak a foreign language (which could be English if it's not one's mother tongue.
English. (I am Brazilian)
- Authored a book.
Never. Have plans.
- Patented or independently developed anything significant.
Never.
- Has developed formulas or mathematical ideas which you have not seen elsewhere.
I can simply do the four operations.
- Earned a secondary school educational diploma more than once (from two or more different countries).
Never.
- Is an actual citizen of two or more nation-states.
Never, could do with Portugal, never had the interest.
- Witnessed a crime (like a theft or murder), and managed to get the criminal arrested.
No.
- Was legally ordained.
No.
- Is licenced for something other than driving a car (a commercial licence can be included, since it is a superior licence).
Licensed to drive a Boat, Licenced to have a gun (do not have it), Licenced to own armoured cars, Licenced as a Real Estate Agent, Licenced as a Lawyer, Licenced as an Uncle Scrooge Comic Book collector (don´t ask).
- Is certified or accredited for something.
No.
- Has suffered the sudden loss of loved one who was not old (e.g., a parent, a sibling, or a spouse/prospective spouse)
Cousins only.
- Had an experience which could be or was qualified as paranormal by a paranormal authority.
OH YES. Bought an old building and still keep seing people that are not there. Maybe they are.
- Believe conventional medicine, economics, or some other so-called science is actually a pseudoscience.
Dislike medicine and do not trust 80% of what doctors say. But I would run to the doctor anyway, if I had a problem.
- Believe in God.
Yes. And in one, Holy Catholic Church.
- Believe in a God which is something other than nature, the universe, and something closer to what you look like.
I am not into that indian-hindu-thing. God for me is the good old trinity, etc.
- Believe natural science has authority over all other interpretations of life, such as philosophical, religious, mythical, spiritual, or humanistic explanations (you are a believer in scientism).
No I am not.
[/quote] Fun again! Yours,
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Post by Bokonton on Aug 2, 2009 7:23:27 GMT 10
How many of you have... Killed a deer or other large mammal for sport and/or venison. I don't believe in bloodsports, but I have killed for food. Learned to speak a foreign language (which could be English if it's not one's mother tongue. Spanish? Not too well, but on my recent trip to Spain I spoke it the most in the party, and I picked up a lot more. French, also not too well. Authored a book. my poems/writings have been published in another book, and I've had one dedicated to me, which confused my family ;D Patented or independently developed anything significant. I've developed many graphic designs.... not really significant, but all my work Has developed formulas or mathematical ideas which you have not seen elsewhere. Nope. Earned a secondary school educational diploma more than once (from two or more different countries). No. Is an actual citizen of two or more nation-states. England and Australia. Witnessed a crime (like a theft or murder), and managed to get the criminal arrested. Does reporting con/scam artists, and reporting animal abusers to the RSPCA count? Was legally ordained. Nada. Is licenced for something other than driving a car (a commercial licence can be included, since it is a superior licence). No. Has suffered the sudden loss of loved one who was not old (e.g., a parent, a sibling, or a spouse/prospective spouse) My Uncle had a paragliding accident when I was younger. His parents had to switch off the machine. It eventually led to my father leaving my mother for my uncle's (recently) bereaved wife and marrying her, so that was a double whammy. Had an experience which could be or was qualified as paranormal by a paranormal authority. Living in Elizabethan house for 4 years. Eye-opening.
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