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Post by commiczar on Sept 11, 2009 5:42:24 GMT 10
Greetings to All !! Just curious......... ( after taking a few "Virtual State Visits".... ) Is your Great State's *Nation Identification* indigenous to your "macro" neighbor-nation; or instead, is it unique unto itself; whereby, the terms "native" and "innate" are of no real or meaningful consquence ? _________________________________________________ Excellent Example:............... ( I think...I hope... ) One's "macro" neighbor-nation is the USA, but your own micronation identifies it's culture, language, religion, currency, etc with that of Germany, or France, or Russia...etc, etc, etc..... ( i.e. tends to look and act more like Germany, France, or Russia, than the USA; at least from an outside observer's vantage / view-point ) Which leaves three most possibile / probable categories: - Mimics / mirrors one's "macro" neighbor-nation
- Mimics / mirrors a different and distant "macro" neighbor-nation
( distant can apply to "macro" nations in the *present*, or the *past*; such as a resurrection movement, etc... )
- Mimics / mirrors neither.....designed as a *unique* "one-of-a-kind"
MicroGovt / Micronation
_________________________________________________ Of course, suffice to say...in overall general terms, *ALL* nations ( macro and micro alike ) are a composite / collage of many types of cultures / nations; whereby, nowadays there are very few ( if any ) nations that can claim to be pristine with regards to their ancient ancestrial roots. ( the world(s) has grown smaller ) Also, historical ideas and ideals come into play with this subject; and as such, cultural identity tends to merge with that of one's own personal accepting or rejecting of his or her family's generational past(s). However, in total and external promotion of your own micronation, would it be safe to say...that your micronation "mirrors" / "mimics" the characteristics and traditions most associated with your own "macro" neighbor-nation; or instead, would it be safer to say... that your micronation is either "unique" unto itself, or a "copy-cat" ( for lack of a better word ) of a "macro" nation that is not within the general proximity of your micronation's borders ?? Not to say, by direct or implied means, that either *Nation Identification* is right or wrong, one way or the other; merely seeking to see who among us follow our "macro" roots...and who among us seek to design and develope a different direction for your micronation's identification. Any identification of any micronation should be accepted and respected; as diversity is only one of many components that makes-up the "life-blood" of the micronational journey. ( i.e. "It's *ALL* Good !! " / no right...no wrong ) Regards to All !! ______________
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bahoudii
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Post by bahoudii on Sept 11, 2009 7:08:22 GMT 10
Greetings...
We believe that this thread is of great importance. Let us speak a bit about Bahoudii and the "Nation Identification" question. While this may be a lengthy response, we believe it my clarify the position we take in Bahoudii.
The Kingdom of Bahoudii was started a little over 33 years ago. We began as what Irwin Strauss defined as a "Model Country"... a group of like minded individuals wanting something "different", something "better" for ourselves and our descendants.
Almost immediately, the concept that we should try to achieve sovereignty was put on the table and discussions began in earnest about how to go about bringing that to be.
In the early years, the governmental form changed a few times and our idea of how to achieve sovereignty grew from; "Hey... let's build a floating island!", to "Hey... let's buy an island!", to where we are today.
This brings us to the question of "Identity"...
From day one, Bahoudii has rejected all "macronational" identity and built a rich culture, ethic, and values set derived from the unique patchwork of it's populace. We reject "macronational" holidays, etc. and have implemented our own. We do not mimic any other micro or macro national identity and never have.
As the CommiCzar expressed in the beginning of this thread, we have been influenced by macro-nations, but not to the extent of "copying" them. The Bahoudii populace has brought their "birth-cultures" with them, and of course, one's upbringing influences one to the grave.
Given the options of the CommiCzar's original post, we would say that Bahoudii falls squarely within the;
"... your micronation is ... "unique" unto itself ..."
The last comments of the CommiCzar reflect, in part, the motivation that has prompted Bahoudii within the last 15 years or so to reject the term (label) "micronation" and instead begin using the term (label) "putative state".
Micronationalism has changed over the last 30-odd years and with the advent of cheap, accessible (and often free) internet hosting and connectivity more and more "fictive" and "simulation" players entered the community. It has become harder and harder to be seen as a serious group seeking any level of real world sovereignty.
This has been a sore point with many, since even though Bahoudii has never been aggressive toward any group, we have been perceived as "dissing" others. We, as a nation, have very tough, hard-line views on what is and is not a "micronation" or as we prefer to call them, "putative state". Often, this has meant that other "micronations" got upset whenever the Ministry of State would post listings of current diplomatic ratings. We would list a "micronation" as fictive or virtual or some other label they disagreed with and they were almost ready to come to blows.
This is part and parcel of our "Identity"... we do believe we are different from most of the "micronations" in the world. To believe any less would be treasonous to the Crown we each swear fealty and homage to.
Yes... each and every citizen of the Kingdom actually, physically swears fealty and homage on bended knee to the Crown of Bahoudii over all other nations, states, princes and powers. Thus, our populace may be smaller in number than some "fictive states", but it is a very real, very dedicated populace that has worked hard for over 3 decades to build something physical and (hopefully) lasting.
This also means that the Crown of Bahoudii weighs heavy upon the brow that bears it. A real, physical populace looks to the Crown for real leadership... not just titular "leadership".
We could go into more detail about our culture, beliefs, ethics, etc. but this is not the proper forum or thread. We hope this has answered His Excellency the CommiCzar's inquiry.
In closing, we can sum our belief up as "It's not *ALL* Good!!" Sometimes lines must be drawn.
If this has upset or offended anyone, we apologize. Dissension is not our goal and our purpose in responding has not been to start a "flame war", etc.
For Crown and Country
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George
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Post by George on Sept 11, 2009 8:58:12 GMT 10
As I've said elsewhere, there's nothing "funny" about Atlantium. Never has been. Never will be.
Atlantium presently embraces over 1200 citizens residing in more than 100 countries - all of them real human beings who have responded to the resonance of our message, by willingly applying to become citizens of the world's only imperial republic.
We strongly embrace and encourage cultural diversity within the context of our distinct, evolving global identity.
The undoubted succes of our unique approach to the idea of evolved civic consciousness, over the past three decades, is, we feel, a testament to the wisdom of our policy of largely acting outside the reference points associated with existing paradigms.
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bahoudii
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Post by bahoudii on Sept 11, 2009 9:07:17 GMT 10
Double Plus Good ...
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Post by commiczar on Sept 11, 2009 9:59:15 GMT 10
Greetings... We believe that this thread is of great importance. Let us speak a bit about Bahoudii and the "Nation Identification" question. While this may be a lengthy response, we believe it my clarify the position we take in Bahoudii. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this has upset or offended anyone, we apologize. Dissension is not our goal and our purpose in responding has not been to start a "flame war", etc. For Crown and Country GREAT Reply / Exchange of ideas and info !! Extremely interesting...and very informative !! Thank You very much !!
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Post by commiczar on Sept 11, 2009 10:05:11 GMT 10
As I've said elsewhere, there's nothing "funny" about Atlantium. Never has been. Never will be. Atlantium presently embraces over 1200 citizens residing in more than 100 countries - all of them real human beings who have responded to the resonance of our message, by willingly applying to become citizens of the world[/size]'s only imperial republic. We strongly embrace and encourage cultural diversity within the context of our distinct, evolving global identity. The undoubted succes of our unique approach to the idea of evolved civic consciousness, over the past three decades, is, we feel, a testament to the wisdom of our policy of largely acting outside the reference points associated with existing paradigms.[/quote] I like that concept / approach.... "Citizen of the World"....as it automatically ( without any need for additional explanation ) defines the fact that diversity is the key to Atlantium's longivity and perpetual success. __________________________________________________
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bahoudii
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Post by bahoudii on Sept 11, 2009 10:13:20 GMT 10
Perhaps it would be interesting to know how each of the member nations self-identify (i.e. micronation, fictive state, simulation, NGO, putative state, etc.) and what their individual definitions are?
It might aid us all in communicating our ideas and goals.
I personally would be very interested in learning what others believe constitutes a "real micronation" (whatever that is...)
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George
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Post by George on Sept 11, 2009 10:22:07 GMT 10
Atlantium typically applies "global sovereign state", "parallel global state", "aspirant state" or "global sovereignty advocacy" as terms of self-description.
In terms of govermental system, we generally describe ourselves as an "imperial republic" or "imperial commonwealth".
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George
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Post by George on Sept 11, 2009 10:25:40 GMT 10
A "micronation" is any entity that purports to be or gives the appearance of being a sovereign state, but isn't.
Not appearing in the CIA World Factbook is a giveaway.
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bahoudii
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Post by bahoudii on Sept 11, 2009 10:30:53 GMT 10
And how does this list/Atlantium/etc. define the difference between "virtual" and "physical" micronations? I have seen comments concerning the "strict definition" (possibly using other wording... my memory fails at the moment) of what is and is not ...
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George
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Post by George on Sept 11, 2009 10:49:15 GMT 10
For the purposes of the LOM list, the following apply: Physical micronations:Micronational entities which are reliably known to have successfully projected one or more aspects of their operations into the corporeal world. This might involve any of the following: - claiming, but not holding legal title to or occupying a defined physical territory on Earth, or on other planets or asteroids.
- claiming and holding legal title to but not occupying, a defined physical territory on Earth.
- claiming, holding legal title to and physically occupying a defined physical territory on Earth.
- producing original stamps, coins, banknotes, flags, medals, regalia etc in commercial quantities, via commercial processes, either for commercial sale or for specific publicly-documented internal purposes.
- creating and maintaining group-specific monuments, buildings and structures.
- conducting publicly-documented, group-specific activities (such as inaugurations, commemorations, media briefings, meetings of principals and social gatherings) - in person.
Virtual micronations:Micronational entities which have no physical manifestation in the corporeal world. Including: - Micronations that exist solely in an electronic context.
- Micronations that are comprised of entirely fictional elements (including population, geography, physical infrastructure and materiel and events), and that engage in entirely fictional non-realtime interactions with other micronations.
- Micronations whose members may assume pseudonymous identities, but whose activities consist largely or entirely to realtime online role-playing type interactions.
In order to avoid any confusion the above will be included with the next update of the LOM list of micronations, which will be published tomorrow. NB: The LOM list does not apply highly subjective and emotive terms such as "secessionist", "simulationist" or "serious" to any micronational entity. The application of such terms requires a value judgement, which will always differ from individual to individual; this is totally inappropriate and completely unworkable when seeking to establish any viable taxonomical system. Under the LOM taxonomy, if a micronation has some documented physical attribute in the real world it is "physical". If it does not it is "virtual". This is a simple, quantifiable YES/NO determination that is not subject to personal value judgement.
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bahoudii
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Post by bahoudii on Sept 11, 2009 11:01:43 GMT 10
Very interesting...
The LOM list standards are very much in line with Bahoudii's definitions with one exception...
"... claiming, but not holding legal title to or occupying a defined physical territory on Earth, or on other planets or asteroids ..."
We dismiss any extraterrestrial claims unless the claimant has a viable space program (as far as we know... no micronation has a space program)
We also require "putative states" to either hold title to any claimed property or to be involved in acquiring property. Our definition of "holding property" does not include leased or financed property.
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George
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Post by George on Sept 11, 2009 11:06:14 GMT 10
I would argue that a micronation claiming territory on Mars or the Moon has exactly the same chance of enforcing that claim/occupying said territory as a micronation claiming half of Antarctica, or a jungle in central Africa - ie, none.
They should therefore share the same classification.
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Post by commiczar on Sept 11, 2009 11:12:11 GMT 10
Perhaps it would be interesting to know how each of the member nations self-identify (i.e. micronation, fictive state, simulation, NGO, putative state, etc.) and what their individual definitions are? It might aid us all in communicating our ideas and goals. I personally would be very interested in learning what others believe constitutes a "real micronation" (whatever that is...) Greetings !! Excellent point.......and a good idea............. Like many self-identified micronations, the Imperium's *Dream* is unique; as it approaches the Micronational Movement with what I prefer to refer to as "Double Vision"; whereby, we see all of our day-to-day activities from two view-points.... i.e.....viewing a "macro" activity within a "micro-scope's" vantage. ( i.e. paying "macro" *taxes* = paying "micro" *tributes* to our "macro" neighbor-nation...as "protection money" ) More-or-less a "State of Mind" kind of thingie; however, this approach allows us to justify our own *Dream*, and to build upon it day after day. ( i.e. add another "brick" to our wall ) The Imperium of DeWaCo Estates is comprised of Family Farms and related real estate and businesses; and it is from that vantage that we draw our strength for our *Dream* and vision. ( i.e. farm properties = nation, farm buildings = city, farm business operations = economy, Family & Friends and Employees = Ciizens and Subjects, etc, etc, etc....."Double Vision" ) I suppose that the best way to define the Imperium, would be to call Her a... "Government-in-Waiting"[/i]. " The Imperium's Dream is not 'ImagiNation', nor a 'State-of-Mind'; but instead, is a 'DestiNation', being built with 'DetermiNation' " !! { CommiCzar ~ Lord Imperator: 2002 "Declaration of Liberation" Celebration } The major majority of our base-culture mimics that of our "macro" neighbor-nation...the USA; however, we are a diversity within a diversity...as we have Black Culture, Hispanic Culture, and even distant Amish Culture as strong supporting backbones to our social-economical systems. The Imperium is a bit "unique" in it's approach; and yet, "mirrors" / "mimics" many of our Family's traditional, generational, and historical characteristics, views, ideas, and ideals. Regards !! _________
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bahoudii
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Post by bahoudii on Sept 11, 2009 13:29:04 GMT 10
I would argue that a micronation claiming territory on Mars or the Moon has exactly the same chance of enforcing that claim/occupying said territory as a micronation claiming half of Antarctica, or a jungle in central Africa - ie, none. They should therefore share the same classification. Again, we agree... we dismiss claims without some basis in reality whether terrestrial or extraterrestrial... i.e. - If you can't hold the deed in your hand you don't own it, thus can't claim it. Deed, land grant, historical proof... something to legitimize the claim to the land. This is our version of removing the "vaule judgement" conumdrum. I still believe our definition and yours closer rather than further apart.
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bahoudii
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Post by bahoudii on Sept 11, 2009 13:43:59 GMT 10
Like many self-identified micronations, the Imperium's *Dream* is unique; as it approaches the Micronational Movement with what I prefer to refer to as "Double Vision"... Well said... and we agree 100%. We even share your philosophy concerning taxation/tribute (oil on the waters so to speak... ) Interesting and ironically funny that you say ..." State of Mind"... heh, heh, heh... that exact phrase was printed on our last ID issue. It has since been removed though, because some people (non-micronationalists) commented on it and we discovered that it was the only thing preventing our ID's from being 100% accepted. As an aside, our ID's have been used to get airline boarding passes, cash U.S. Federal Income Tax refund cheques, etc... they are VERY convincing. I also can appreciate building on the "dream" day-by-day. For the last three months I have dealt with Kingdom business exclusively, and it appears that I have finally arrived at the point where I can assume the duties of the Crown and Throne exclusively 24/7/365. May I ask if you have built your holdings yourself or if you had something to start with? You say that the Imperium ... is comprised of Family Farms and related real estate and businesses... is why I inquire. I also wondered about the ... "Government-in-Waiting"[/i]... comment. Do you plan to seek any level of sovereignty? Thanks for your great response!
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George
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Post by George on Sept 11, 2009 14:47:12 GMT 10
...we dismiss claims without some basis in reality whether terrestrial or extraterrestrial... i.e. - If you can't hold the deed in your hand you don't own it, thus can't claim it. In this discussion I've been specifically talking about the classification taxonomy that is applied to the List of Micronations, a project that I own and administer as a personal hobby. In terms of Atlantium, it's a completely different story; The Imperial Administration's formal position is that Atlantium is not a micronation, and that as we have been very successful in doing what we do (which includes engaging directly with the heads of state and government of real-world governments) over a long period of time, any formal engagement with micronations (of any sort) could be of potential benefit only to the other party, and damaging to our credibility. This is one of the reasons that we take such exception to micronationalists who attempt to aggrandize themselves at our expense, by unliaterally claiming to have some sort of "relationship" with Atlantium - or even "declaring war" on Atlantium or some other such idiocy - often on such pathetically tenuous grounds as having merely responded to messages posted by me on a forum such as this one (!). Believe me, it has happened, numerous times. Needless to say, my contributions here are made as a private individual; they are not formal statements made on behalf of the Imperial Administration, and they do not "represent" Atlantium in any way, except insofar as they reflect my personal opinion.
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bahoudii
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Post by bahoudii on Sept 11, 2009 16:06:03 GMT 10
In terms of Atlantium, it's a completely different story; The Imperial Administration's formal position is that Atlantium is not a micronation, and that as we have been very successful in doing what we do (which includes engaging directly with the heads of state and government of real-world governments) over a long period of time, any formal engagement with micronations (of any sort) could be of potential benefit only to the other party, and damaging to our credibility. This is one of the reasons that we take such exception to micronationalists who attempt to aggrandize themselves at our expense, by unliaterally claiming to have some sort of "relationship" with Atlantium - or even "declaring war" on Atlantium or some other such idiocy - often on such pathetically tenuous grounds as having merely responded to messages posted by me on a forum such as this one (!). Believe me, it has happened, numerous times. We seem to be reading from similar pages of the same book... I can easily believe you. Over the years Bahoudii has been used by other "micronation players" to engage in fictive "wars" and such... one micronationalist has used a photo of me with a fictive caption. And most of these "web based micronations" are defunct/inactive thus I cannot seem to get the material removed. I have even tried to communicate with the hosting companies... but I will not expend resources on litigation to have such garbage removed. It's bothersome, but beneath us to worry about it. We have upset many over the fact that Bahoudii has never lightly entered any relationship within the micronational realm. Where many have sought high numbers of alliances, agreements, and treaties, we have only officially recognized one micronation... We entered a diplomatic relationship with TorHavn on 19 Oct., 2001. We also have had some limited exchange with "real world" or "first world" national representatives from more than one "macro-nation" and are quite protective of our reputation, too. As for speaking as an individual as opposed to speaking as a head of state... we always assume the position that we are speaking as a head of state when speaking publicly. "Official statements" are issued from the Throne before the People's Council, Privy Cabinet of Ministers, and Nobles in joint session. All other comments are my personal opinions, yet they are the personal opinions of the head of State of Bahoudii.
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Post by commiczar on Sept 12, 2009 6:14:22 GMT 10
Like many self-identified micronations, the Imperium's *Dream* is unique; as it approaches the Micronational Movement with what I prefer to refer to as "Double Vision"... Well said... and we agree 100%. We even share your philosophy concerning taxation/tribute (oil on the waters so to speak... ) Interesting and ironically funny that you say ..." State of Mind"... >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> May I ask if you have built your holdings yourself or if you had something to start with? You say that the Imperium ... is comprised of Family Farms and related real estate and businesses... is why I inquire. I also wondered about the ... "Government-in-Waiting"[/i]... comment. Do you plan to seek any level of sovereignty? Thanks for your great response! [/quote] Greetings !! Brief background........ The Family Farms / CO-OP / Agribiz / etc are generational, with the majority of the authority of each division having been legally assigned to me and my immediate Family; while the Imperium of DeWaCo Estates' "Imperial Protectorates" ( i.e. real estate holdings and investments: rentals, leases, etc ) have been aquired by myself and my immediate Family, over the decades. ( a good % began from "tax sale" properties / still do ) The Imperium of DeWaCo Estates observed Our 13th *Official* Anniversary on September 6, 2009, with Our "Declaration of Liberation" Celebrations; however, Our *Dream* is over 50 years old, as it came into existence when I was just a boy of 8 or 9 years of age. ( brothers and sisters and cousins lived the *Dream* then; with the good % of the same, still living the *Dream* today ) "Government-in-Waiting" has been in Our verbiage, along with "Micronational Movement", for decades; and we see the *Movement* "as a means to an end", which we hope...will one day open up the door to some degree / level of "semi-to-self-sovereignty" ...i.e....*Govt-in-Waiting*.( not today, not tomorrow....not within my lifetime most likely ) NOTE: The "Micronational Movement" is not a universal doctrine, nor is it a unified force; as it is a "fluid" within the fabric of one's own personal experiences and *Dream*...and has to be followed in different directions by each person..in order for each to achieve / reach his or her own designed destination. ( much the same as a single chain...made-up of seperate links ) ( "seperate-but-equal"...from each person's personal perspective )That is Our *Dream*...and no one can steal a person's dream !! ( dreams / day dreams / nightmares ) "A *Dream* is like *Life*...it is *REAL*...when you are in it !!"[/i] ( you can quote me on that ) Regards !! ___________________________________________________
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