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Post by commiczar on Jun 12, 2009 12:53:34 GMT 10
STATEMENT FROM THE IMPERIAL GOVERNMENT:
Greetings to All !!
The US President has his hands full, with regards to Israel's interest within its own borders ( i.e the 2-state *solution* ), as well as within the greater middle east; as it is well known that Israel will do as it sees fit, regardless of the financial arrangements between itself and it's BIG Brother...the USA.
Israel...Is Real...content to do as it will, with regards to Iran and the Palestine *Question*; knowing full-well ...that Uncle $am will never ever turn its back on Israel.
It is doubtful that Israel will cease its construction of new settlements in the West Bank; which is a mandate set by Obama, and is expected to be agreed to by mid-year.
There are many possibilites / probabilities associated with this issue; and the worse thing about it all, is the fact that history seems to once again to begin repeating itself...i.e....another round of warfare in that region.
Regards to All !! _____________
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George
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Post by George on Jun 12, 2009 13:32:55 GMT 10
In my opinion a two-state "solution" of the Israel-Palestine issue is not a solution, but a recipe for a perpetuation of the slow-motion train wreck that has been ongoing in that region pretty much perpetually since 1947.
The two-state "solution" entrenches division, suspicion, social/political inequity and hypocrisy, provides a breeding ground for terrorism and supplies a ready-made launching pad for potential global nuclear conflict.
To my mind, the only practical solution is a multi-ethnic SINGLE state solution combining Israel and Palestine in a federation under an internationally-policed UN mandate, until such time as social, political and economic equality can supplant current long-standing hatreds - however long that might take.
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Post by commiczar on Jun 13, 2009 8:36:44 GMT 10
In my opinion a two-state "solution" of the Israel-Palestine issue is not a solution, but a recipe for a perpetuation of the slow-motion train wreck that has been ongoing in that region pretty much perpetually since 1947. The two-state "solution" entrenches division, suspicion, social/political inequity and hypocrisy, provides a breeding ground for terrorism and supplies a ready-made launching pad for potential global nuclear conflict. To my mind, the only practical solution is a multi-ethnic SINGLE state solution combining Israel and Palestine in a federation under an internationally-policed UN mandate, until such time as social, political and economic equality can supplant current long-standing hatreds - however long that might take. Greetings George !! I tend to support Your view with regards to a *single-state* solution. Regards !! _________
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George
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Post by George on Jun 13, 2009 8:39:19 GMT 10
Apparently the single-state solution is now something that the Palestinian Authority itself is increasingly tending to support.
...which is unsurprising, given the comprehensive failure of the so-called "two state solution".
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Post by commiczar on Jun 13, 2009 9:01:12 GMT 10
Apparently the single-state solution is now something that the Palestinian Authority itself is increasingly tending to support. ...which is unsurprising, given the comprehensive failure of the so-called "two state solution". I believe that the *power-that-be* are determined to create a 2-state "solution", even though I agree with Your idea of a "single-state"; especially since a 2-state will allow the current situation to continue....and there is money....BIG $$$$....to be made leaving things go as they already are; as well as the fact that, the current "situation" allows other governments a power-base behind the curtains and in the shadows. ___________________________________________________
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Post by J on Jun 13, 2009 23:58:58 GMT 10
Israteen. Libya would likely recognize such an entity: www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/020724/2002072415.htmlHere are the pitfalls with such a noble solution: 1.) Jews would likely become a minority in such a country if not from day 1 depending upon a "law of return" for Palestinians. 2.) Do not Jews deserve or are otherwise entitled to a homeland or nation of their own? Certainly, not at the expense of others or by the guarantees of others. It would be as if to suggest the United States and Mexico should merge to solve the border problem, any historical dispute and illegal immigration. Granted, Mexico is far less populous than the United States.
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Post by commiczar on Jun 14, 2009 3:30:14 GMT 10
All good points.
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George
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Post by George on Jun 14, 2009 6:55:14 GMT 10
Jews would likely become a minority in such a country if not from day 1 depending upon a "law of return" for Palestinians. Perhaps that would not be such a bad thing. The problem with Israel is that, despite being an ostensibly secular state, it was founded on the basis of exclusive religious affiliation - and that is always a recipe for disaster, no matter where in the world it occurs. Do not Jews deserve or are otherwise entitled to a homeland or nation of their own? Does any distinct cultural group deserve their own nation-state as a homeland? What of the Kurds, West Papuans, South Moluccans, Western Saharans, Cabindans, native Hawaiians and any of literally dozens of other groups currently seeking a similar outcome on every continent (other than Antarctica, which is only being fought over by dozens of micronations! )? Certainly, not at the expense of others or by the guarantees of others. Ah! There's the rub! It would be as if to suggest the United States and Mexico should merge to solve the border problem, any historical dispute and illegal immigration. Not quite. It would be more akin to the situation in Lebanon, where minority Christian and Druze communities have managed to again re-establish a workable multi-ethnic parliamentary democracy in the midst of a majority muslim community comprising both major Islamic sects. Granted the situation there remains fragile - largely thanks to 30 years of meddling by external parties (take a bow Syria and Iran!), but the rule of law appears slowly to be prevailing. We also tend to forget that Egypt, with 80 million citizens, by far the largest country in the Arab world - 10% of whose population is Christian - has been a largely successful multi-ethnic (albeit totalitartian) state for most of the last 1000 years.
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Post by wrkgov on Jun 14, 2009 7:21:02 GMT 10
There will never be peace with a single state. Period. There will never be peace with two states. Period.
The Israelis want to live there, and believe it is their right to. The Arabs, understandably, feel slighted given that they were never actually asked in the first place and that they feel they have been pushed out of their homelands.
So the Israelis want to live there and the arabs want their land back. There is now so much resentment between the two sides that a multi ethnic solution, as good as it may sound, is now not possible. There are too many arabs who have been fundamentalised against Israel, and it is likely that the two sides would more or less stay where they are right now geographically anyway, with the exception of probable Jewish settlements in the West Bank, and possible movements back into Gaza. There really is no way of settling this, and it will take generations before anybody will actually be able to come up with a solution, and even then it probably wont work.
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George
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Post by George on Jun 14, 2009 7:25:03 GMT 10
There really is no way of settling this, and it will take generations before anybody will actually be able to come up with a solution, and even then it probably wont work. Don't forget that people said the same thing about East Timor and Northern Ireland...
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Post by J on Jun 15, 2009 0:47:28 GMT 10
Perhaps that would not be such a bad thing. The problem with Israel is that, despite being an ostensibly secular state, it was founded on the basis of exclusive religious affiliation - and that is always a recipe for disaster, no matter where in the world it occurs. To be accurate you mean ethno-religious affiliation. There are many non-religious Jews present in Israel. Officially, Judaism is not the State religion. Non-Jewish religious authorities still have a fair amount of autonomy in civil matters. Does any distinct cultural group deserve their own nation-state as a homeland? What of the Kurds, West Papuans, South Moluccans, Western Saharans, Cabindans, native Hawaiians and any of literally dozens of other groups currently seeking a similar outcome on every continent (other than Antarctica, which is only being fought over by dozens of micronations! )? My answer to the question is yes. Why should Jewish people be excluded from the list? If yes to the Kurds and Papuans, why not yes to the Jews? Not quite. It would be more akin to the situation in Lebanon, where minority Christian and Druze communities have managed to again re-establish a workable multi-ethnic parliamentary democracy in the midst of a majority muslim community comprising both major Islamic sects. Granted the situation there remains fragile - largely thanks to 30 years of meddling by external parties (take a bow Syria and Iran!), but the rule of law appears slowly to be prevailing.
We also tend to forget that Egypt, with 80 million citizens, by far the largest country in the Arab world - 10% of whose population is Christian - has been a largely successful multi-ethnic (albeit totalitartian) state for most of the last 1000 years. Not quite. The demographics of an Israteen would never be much like Egypt. I don't think any reasonable person would make the case for Israel becoming like Egypt. Totalitarianism as a glue to bind different peoples ultimately leads to either the misery being spread out equally or abject failure. The Lebanon example is a far better one. An Israteen would still be subject to foreign meddling from each of the respective Diasporas.
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Post by wrkgov on Jun 15, 2009 6:31:21 GMT 10
There really is no way of settling this, and it will take generations before anybody will actually be able to come up with a solution, and even then it probably wont work. Don't forget that people said the same thing about East Timor and Northern Ireland... True, but the difference here is simple. Israel has sovreignty over Arab territories, and whatever it does it will always be seen by the Arabs as opressing them. The attitudes of the west haven't helped, condeming Gazas elected government as terrorists and refusing to engage with them whilst standing up for Israel despite actio a that are blatantly war crimes (bombing schools for example). But then it isn't always clear where the power lies within the Palestinian territories either. You only need to look at how Hamas took over the gaza strip to see that, and there are deep divisions even within the Palestinian Authority itself, and by no means does it speak with one voice. That is partly why a second state wouldn't work. It would simply split up into blocs and wouldn't work with itself. As much as I would like to believe in a two state solution, or any solution at all, at the moment, and for the forseeable future, peace is not possible.
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George
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Post by George on Jun 15, 2009 10:09:30 GMT 10
An Israteen would still be subject to foreign meddling from each of the respective Diasporas. ...which is why we must sweep away the whole teetering behemoth that is the current ramshackle Westphalian system of nation-states, and replace it with some sort of global federation which has a capacity for centralised decision-making and the means to police it wherever necessary!
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George
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Post by George on Jun 15, 2009 10:35:52 GMT 10
Does any distinct cultural group deserve their own nation-state as a homeland? What of the Kurds, West Papuans, South Moluccans, Western Saharans, Cabindans, native Hawaiians and any of literally dozens of other groups currently seeking a similar outcome on every continent (other than Antarctica, which is only being fought over by dozens of micronations! )? My answer to the question is yes. Why should Jewish people be excluded from the list? If yes to the Kurds and Papuans, why not yes to the Jews? I don't believe the Jewish people or any legitimate cultural group should be denied the right to self-determination. I just question the viability of pitting competing groups with overlapping claims against each other in historically-disputed areas. I firmly believe that people who have a good education, a meaningful job, food in their belly, a realistic capacity to realise their personal potential and a means of ensuring their children can grow up to share the same opportunities tend to get on with others a lot better than those who don't. Were the Israelis and Palestinians to agree to establish a federation in which each group maintained relative cultural autonomy while simultaneously sharing the benefits of joint economic co-operation, the "Israel-Palestine conflict" would - without a doubt - evaporate of its own accord in no more than 2 or 3 decades. Economic wellbeing always starves extremism of the oxygen it needs to perpetuate itself. It's no accident that in times of economic uncertainty or decline, extemist groups always expand - just look at the result of last week's European Parliament elections. The demographics of an Israteen would never be much like Egypt. I don't think any reasonable person would make the case for Israel becoming like Egypt. Totalitarianism as a glue to bind different peoples ultimately leads to either the misery being spread out equally or abject failure. I don't know what the current Palestinian vs Israeli population is, but I have a feeling that it might well be close to an 80/20 or 90/10 split, so numerically the comparison with Egypt may hold water. I think Egypt is an interesting example; I always knew there was a large minority Christian population there, but it wasn't until I visited Cairo and saw just how many belltowers and domes with crosses atop them that there are punctuating the skyline, that the significance of it hit home. Yes, there are occasional flare-ups between small groups of christian or muslim extremists from time to time, but when you consider how poor, badly educated and disenfranchised most Egyptians are by western standards, the general cultural equanimity between the two major religions seems almost miraculous - they must be doing something right. Perhaps they all just accept that "we're all in this together", and get on with trying to sell wealthy foreign tourists another bloody hideous plastic souvenir sphinx (made in China). ;D
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George
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Post by George on Jun 15, 2009 20:50:42 GMT 10
According to the last graph on this page, there was in 2006 an almost 50/50 population split between Jews and Arabs in the area comprising Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights. It is certainly trending increasingly in the Arab direction due to their higher rate of population growth - but it is still a good basis for a federation of equals, methinks.
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Post by J on Jun 15, 2009 23:39:31 GMT 10
According to the last graph on this page, there was in 2006 an almost 50/50 population split between Jews and Arabs in the area comprising Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights. You are further correct in saying: I t is certainly trending increasingly in the Arab direction due to their higher rate of population growth The problem is also internal among both camps. The Arabs & Palestinian populations are becoming increasingly younger. The Jewish population is becoming more Haredi or Orthodox. Time is not on the side of Israel in making a deal or final arrangements. The IDF can not stop the demographic " bomb" waiting to go off. Any attempt to do so would be ruinous. If I understand you right George, then wouldn't some kind of joint-condominium be the solution for Northern Ireland?
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Post by Bokonton on Jun 18, 2009 5:38:46 GMT 10
Segregation leads to increased enmity and hatred. It breeds inequality. The hatred will simmer and boil eventually, people. I had faith in Obama- well, as much faith as you can have in a major politician- until this.
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Post by J on Jun 19, 2009 12:47:17 GMT 10
Might I suggest having more faith in yourself than any politician. Be it Barack, Reagan, Thatcher, Indira, Pauline Hanson, Golda or otherwise.
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George
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Post by George on Jun 19, 2009 13:31:44 GMT 10
...especially Pauline Hanson!
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Post by Bokonton on Jun 20, 2009 2:15:23 GMT 10
I believe very strongly that politicians-regardless of who they are- cannot truly solve problems, as they act to please others on the whole. I personally have faith in myself-and many others- because they will always act to please everyone, their select few that they have responsibility over, and not to compromise-if they can help it- or make half-promises. This is not really the fault of the politicians (although the Bushes were an exception; BOTH of them!) I think that if the whole world pooled their resources and came up with a much more individual government, it would be much better for all. Every court case would be reviewed with the unique circumstances, and it would be more community like. Everywhere would be run like small nation to an extent Small Nations. Now, where have I heard that one before....
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Post by sogoln on Jul 1, 2009 5:17:17 GMT 10
One of the big mistakes when dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is to consider it has a religious issue.
It's a colonial one.
Since a wall-based apartheid-type bantustan-like multistate solution is unlikely to last for very long, a multicultural single state solution should be seriously considered. The two parties have a lot to bring to each other if they decide to forget the hatred they were forced into and work together (we're not there yet, but hope is cheap).
However, we lack a few Nelson Mandelas there...
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George
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Post by George on Jul 1, 2009 6:32:34 GMT 10
If it's possible to overcome centuries of sectarian violence in Northern Ireland, it's certainly possible in the Levant.
All that's needed is the political will, and a capacity and willingness to forgive.
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