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Post by davidv on May 17, 2009 18:04:35 GMT 10
The Kingdom of Bahoudii appeared to be dormant for five years but quite recently its website was updated here. Bahoudii had aimed to acquire physical territory and targeted an island in the Bahamas, but it appears they have changed that and now acquired land in an area apparently disputed between two US states- though I don't know which two they are.
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Chas Jago
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Post by Chas Jago on May 17, 2009 21:15:17 GMT 10
An interesting statement,
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George
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Post by George on May 19, 2009 23:50:45 GMT 10
I'll believe it when I see it.
Leaving aside the physical vs virtual micronational organisational paradigm for the moment, there are essentially two types of micronations:
1. Those who tell everyone what they're "gunna" do - without ever actually doing anything (the "gunnas").
2. Those who do whatever it is they set out to do, and tell others about it (and prove it by producing evidence to support their assertions) after they've actually done it (the "doers").
Bahoudii has been firmly stuck in the "gunna" category for at least a decade, by my reckoning - and I don't see much evidence that that's about to change.
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Post by davidv on May 20, 2009 0:33:31 GMT 10
It seems that Bahoudii have chosen to be secretive (or rather low-profile) about their plans, but they claim to have acquired physical territory already. Certainly they have had to re-assess their goals, considering their original aim was to acquire an uninhabited Caribbean island- which seems to have been thwarted twice.
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George
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Post by George on May 20, 2009 1:05:47 GMT 10
As a general rule I apply Ockham's Razor to the various outlandish and/or unsubstantiated claims made by micronations like Bahoudii.
I think that it's far more likely that David Eugene simply never had the multi-million dollar budget required to fund the acquisition of a tropical island, than it is that he had the money and was somehow nefariously thwarted in this aim - twice.
As for the claim that two mysteriously un-named US states are in dispute over territory, and that Bahoudii has acquired land in the disputed area, and is therefore somehow in a position to declare itself to be a sovereign state... frankly, that's just too silly for words.
Firstly, if such a dispute existed in reality, it would certainly be public knowledge, and hence there would be no reason for - or indeed possibility of - any "secrecy" on the part of Mr Eugene.
Secondly, any legal land acquisition by Mr Eugene would have to be documented by one or other of the disputant state authorities; one cannot acquire legal freehold title to land in the US outside the usual legal processes - so whatever land he has, it remains entirely subject to the laws of whichever US state registered the transfer of title.
Thirdly, if two US states were genuinely engaged in a territorial dispute, merely acquiring title to land in the disputed area would not magically mean that it was no longer a constituent part of the United States - or even that it was somehow a legal grey area - and therefore more susceptible to being sucessfully proclaimed as the basis for a brand new sovereign state - "putative" or otherwise.
All things considered, and in the complete absense of documentary, photographic, video, audio or any other evidence validating his assertions, I think it's fair to say that Mr Eugene's story is entirely lacking in credibility, and probably owes more to the realms of creative fiction than reality.
I would assume that in reality Mr Eugene recently made a down payment on a piece of undeveloped rural land in Nowheresville, USA, and he is now thinking about building a house and a shed on it.
How this might possibly constitute a unique "state-building" exercise of the order of magnitude that his website proclaims, remains for him to explain - but I shall not be holding my breath waiting for that.
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Post by Rex TorHavn on May 21, 2009 3:44:57 GMT 10
To all, greetings:
It is also possible that, due to past experiences with such groups as Freedonia (re: the release of information causing trouble), Bahoudii has decided not to follow down that same road.
It was tragic in Africa, and -- if We had such an opportunity -- We might also keep it low-key... the advertising of further progress is probably to invite others to join in. Perhaps, once theindividual was trusted, then further information might be forthcoming.
TorHavn might be a bit naïve in these matters, but We’re not sure … most of what We’ve seen leads Us to ponder. We’ll wait for further comments.
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Chas Jago
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Post by Chas Jago on May 21, 2009 5:56:50 GMT 10
I'm sorry but Alteria also follows suite with TorHavn on this matter, we feel it is too early to draw conclusion or speculation on what the Kingdom of Bahoudii are up to.
With how many micronations are labeled as nutty when they try to gain access to land, I too would take the more secretive/low profile route.
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George
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Post by George on May 21, 2009 8:27:41 GMT 10
Bahoudii has existed as a website for over a decade, and has produced not a single shred of evidence that it is anything more than a website.
Most people would conclude from this that it's a complete fantasy.
When evidence to the contrary becomes available present opinions can be revised, but at this stage it's just some pixels on a screen.
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Post by Chas Jago on May 21, 2009 9:09:14 GMT 10
While I disagree with your opinion on this matter, You are entitled to your opinion, I will leave it at that.
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Post by shadowdarkfyre on May 27, 2009 16:46:23 GMT 10
To all, greetings: It is also possible that, due to past experiences with such groups as Freedonia (re: the release of information causing trouble), Bahoudii has decided not to follow down that same road. It was tragic in Africa, and -- if We had such an opportunity -- We might also keep it low-key... the advertising of further progress is probably to invite others to join in. Perhaps, once theindividual was trusted, then further information might be forthcoming. TorHavn might be a bit naïve in these matters, but We’re not sure … most of what We’ve seen leads Us to ponder. We’ll wait for further comments. The Domain follows suit with this train of thought. Just because no evidence has been seen to a few is not proof that Bahoudii is nothing more than a website. People thought the same of the Domain, only to discover they were wrong. Besides, it falls to the "Tree in the Forest" argument. If you're not there to hear or see a tree fall, does that mean it didn't fall, didn't make a sound, or doesn't exist? No. It just means you are uninformed. Therefore, like TorHavn and Alteria, the Domain takes the stance of watchfulness. And leaves it at that.
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on May 27, 2009 19:16:00 GMT 10
I fail to see the logic in the thought that a territiorial dispute between two US states may give way to the independence of a "putative state" on the territory in dispute, but frankly, who cares.
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Post by davidv on May 28, 2009 17:33:35 GMT 10
What I do find unusual is that Bahoudii's activity has been sporadic over the years. There seemed to be no activity between 1999 (when Hurricaine Floyd affected their original target island) and 2001, and renewed activity between 2001 and 2003, and seemingly again since last year.
Furthermore, the "putative state" designation suggests they view themselves as apart and somehow above other micronations.
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Chas Jago
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Post by Chas Jago on May 28, 2009 19:13:06 GMT 10
Furthermore, the "putative state" designation suggests they view themselves as apart and somehow above other micronations. They wouldn't be the first to think that.
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Post by davidv on May 29, 2009 11:50:50 GMT 10
Of course but you then have to ask if such an attitude is ultimately counterproductive.
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George
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Post by George on Jun 1, 2009 8:39:29 GMT 10
Furthermore, the "putative state" designation suggests they view themselves as apart and somehow above other micronations. They wouldn't be the first to think that. They can think it (and say it) all they like, but unless they can come up with some evidence to support their assertion they risk being taken for liars and/or fools.
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Post by davidv on Jun 1, 2009 20:28:15 GMT 10
The second last sentence gives a clue, that they will soon publicise their intended location.
One can speculate that they have acquired property and hope to develop it into a Hutt River or Molossia-style entity? Keep in mind too that Molossia did not take its current, landed form until 1999 or so- so there's no reason why we can rule out Bahoudii attaining the same.
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George
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Post by George on Jun 1, 2009 20:33:06 GMT 10
Like I said... I'll believe it when I see it... and based on a solid decade of all-talk, no-action, I don't expect any of us are going to be seeing anything from Bahoudii and its mysterious denizens anytime soon.
Or ever, in fact.
I'd bet my life on it.
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Post by davidv on Jun 1, 2009 22:13:24 GMT 10
In fairness, they do have an e-mail contact on their website, so it might not out of the question to make an enquiry.
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George
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Post by George on Jun 1, 2009 22:26:45 GMT 10
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Post by shadowdarkfyre on Jun 2, 2009 15:43:36 GMT 10
The wisdom comes in not passing judgement arrogantly. ALL micronations have been taken with the same snideness as seems to be exhibited here by the macronations of the world. It does no good for micronationality as a whole for some of us to become elitist in our thinking. Superiority complexes do no good for our ways of life. All it does is damage us as a whole, unless you're talking about those that follow terrorist or racist views(such as the ANSE).
Let us never forget, that ALL micros started the same way: as the dreams and aspirations of one or a few people. No matter whether we aspire to landed nationhood, or are content without it, donnae' forget where we started from.
As for proof... Honestly, they donnae really need validation from anyone in order to exist as a nation... I'm certain they're not losing sleep over whether or not any of us believe them... The debate over the matter is foolish to begin with...
Let It Lie.
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George
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Post by George on Jun 2, 2009 16:27:53 GMT 10
Wisdom lies in knowing when one is having the wool pulled over one's eyes by scammers, fraudsters, liars and fools - all of whom seem to share a particular fascination with insinuating themselves into the micronational world at every possible opportunity.
If Mr Eugene didn't want his project to be made the subject of rational analysis and general ridicule, he should not have published pompous, sweeping unsubstantiated statements about it on his public website, where the entire world could read them.
Now, as you correctly point out, he merely looks like an arrogant, lying fool who talks the talk without walking the walk.
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Chas Jago
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Post by Chas Jago on Jun 3, 2009 7:28:48 GMT 10
Wisdom lies in knowing when one is having the wool pulled over one's eyes by scammers, fraudsters, liars and fools - all of whom seem to share a particular fascination with insinuating themselves into the micronational world at every possible opportunity. If Mr Eugene didn't want his project to be made the subject of rational analysis and general ridicule, he should not have published pompous, sweeping unsubstantiated statements about it on his public website, where the entire world could read them. Now, as you correctly point out, he merely looks like an arrogant, lying fool who talks the talk without walking the walk. I'm sorry but I actually find this statement to be rather annoying. Micronations operate in a world where we are quickly labeled as fantasy, fake, jokes, and for the lack of a better term, Nuts. Many of us as Micronations make claims and statements that are seen by many who do not understand us, as laughable statements, and many of us find it hard to work under the consistent accusation of being little more than brainless overgrown kids playing with fake nations without the need for one of our own to quickly label another Micronation as you have seen fit to do here. Every nation has its own goals and ideals which they seek, and for you to be so judgmental towards another nation when there is a lack of available information to form any opinion on, I find rather elitist and arrogant and to be honest damaging to Micronationalism. I'm sorry but I will not be returning to this forum as I find the attitude of the admin here to be rather close minded and damaging towards Micronationalism as a whole.
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George
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Post by George on Jun 3, 2009 7:43:39 GMT 10
Thanks for your contributions, and best of luck with your project.
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Post by commiczar on Jun 3, 2009 8:03:09 GMT 10
Wisdom lies in knowing when one is having the wool pulled over one's eyes by scammers, fraudsters, liars and fools - all of whom seem to share a particular fascination with insinuating themselves into the micronational world at every possible opportunity. If Mr Eugene didn't want his project to be made the subject of rational analysis and general ridicule, he should not have published pompous, sweeping unsubstantiated statements about it on his public website, where the entire world could read them. Now, as you correctly point out, he merely looks like an arrogant, lying fool who talks the talk without walking the walk. I'm sorry but I actually find this statement to be rather annoying. Micronations operate in a world where we are quickly labeled as fantasy, fake, jokes, and for the lack of a better term, Nuts. Many of us as Micronations make claims and statements that are seen by many who do not understand us, as laughable statements, and many of us find it hard to work under the consistent accusation of being little more than brainless overgrown kids playing with fake nations without the need for one of our own to quickly label another Micronation as you have seen fit to do here. Every nation has its own goals and ideals which they seek, and for you to be so judgmental towards another nation when there is a lack of available information to form any opinion on, I find rather elitist and arrogant and to be honest damaging to Micronationalism. I'm sorry but I will not be returning to this forum as I find the attitude of the admin here to be rather close minded and damaging towards Micronationalism as a whole.Greeting chasj !! If I were you, I wouldn't leave...not just yet. ( you may not be in the minority / based upon pm and emails ) You might be right in your view, and no one should fault you for it; however, to walk-out because someone *might* be a bit too opinionated, does not serve your goals, and only lessens the forum and it's more open-minded members. A forum that keeps an "OPEN" point of view, with regards and respect to it membership, will stay alive, survive, and thrive; but whenever a forum's overseers discount completely *any* members' views, and do not attempt to respect and accept other points-of-views...then is when that type of forum fails. ( just look at all of the forums "r" has destroyed with the same attitude ) "Ownership" of a forum has certain "rights"; however, it has much more "responsibilities" than "rights". ( think about it ) Give it some thought...... I've learned to take some things in stride...try to overlook those who act like the well-known "r"; who has caused more damage to micronationalism than good. Highest Regards !! _______________
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George
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Post by George on Jun 3, 2009 8:08:37 GMT 10
In my experience micronationalists tend to be a fairly touchy lot, and it doesn't take much for them to throw a hissy fit.
Chas is entitled to his opinion, and he can come and go as the mood takes him.
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Chas Jago
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Post by Chas Jago on Jun 3, 2009 8:41:46 GMT 10
My friend,
I have known George and Richard(r) for many years, and while contact may have not been initiated with them, we have observed there postings and conduct throughout the community in multiple forums.
We don't support one forum over another, we never have. Forums allow for communication between nations, and it is our opinion that forums should be as open and as neutral as possible to allow for informative, knowledgeable and above all civil discussion to commence. At any stage we enter into a forum, it is done from a neutral point of view where all members of that forum have a equal right to express themselves and conduct themselves with civil professionalism. But when members opinions are belittled or ignored then we find that the forum has because one sided. We find that this neutral stance in this forum is hard to maintain, and especially when other members must voice there opinion via PM because they feel that there opinion in open forum is not welcome or may lead to there equal participation being removed or attacked. I'm afraid this has happened, therefore we feel that there is no other option but to remove ourselves from this situation.
One of the things we find most annoying is the continued separation of the community, because of opinions, thoughts and/or attitudes of a select few.
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Post by J on Jun 3, 2009 8:56:59 GMT 10
Many micronationalists indeed are emotional and touchy. The reasons are obvious:
1.) Micronationalists tend to put themselves up on a pedestal, anyone someone does it. Be it professional sports, music, entertainment, politics or whatever the venue, you get subject to often times harsh criticism.
The old expression: if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen rings very appropriate.
2.) Micronations tend to be the "baby" of the micronationalist. Just like a brand new or vintage automobile. Or even a real life baby.
3.) Often times micronationalists do not interact with other micronationalists offline and on a daily basis. As a result, they tend to become insular and even secretive. This can lead to sensitivity.
Chas, does bring up a point as he always does. I too dislike the separation in the community. But I also recognize why it is such. My preference is for harmony and gentlemanly disagreements.
But to have to go back to the basics every few months is so nauseating.
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George
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Post by George on Jun 3, 2009 9:14:14 GMT 10
We find that this neutral stance in this forum is hard to maintain, and especially when other members must voice there opinion via PM because they feel that there opinion in open forum is not welcome or may lead to there equal participation being removed or attacked. I'm afraid this has happened Chas, I respect your right to your opinion, but I'm afraid you are letting emotion get the better of you. NOBODY here has been attacked, NOBODY here has had their opinion belittled, and NOBODY has had their account deleted or modified - by me or by ANYONE else. Your allegation to the contrary is as false as it is offensive. I suggest you retract it. EVERYONE here is and will continue to be welcome to publicly share their opinions on any relevant discussion subject... and EVERYONE here has the right of public response to the publicly-expressed opinions of others.
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Post by commiczar on Jun 3, 2009 9:25:07 GMT 10
It saddens me to say...but I can see sides developing within this relatively new MicroForum; and of course, as we all know all too well, such divisions will eventually lead to the elimination of the forum.....which will then be resurrected by someone in some new form or fashion....and thereby...starting the whole ball of wax to begin re-rolling.
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Post by commiczar on Jun 3, 2009 9:26:58 GMT 10
And to add to the entire subject........ this thread has unraveled completely !!
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