George
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Head Honcho and Spangle of the Cosmos
Posts: 2,997
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Post by George on Jun 3, 2009 9:28:28 GMT 10
The old expression: if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen rings very appropriate. That is precisely my point, Julian. If people are terrified of having their comfortable beliefs, assumptions and preconceptions about micronationalism (or anything else) challenged, they probably shouldn't be here. LOM is not an exercise in back-slapping or mutual intellectual masturbation. Personally, I'm not here to validate people or make them feel comfortable. I'm here to challenge them, because it's only through challenging preconceptions and engaging in vigorous, rational analytical debate that micronationalists as a group will ever have a ghost of a chance of being treated by the world at large as something other than a bunch of delusional, half-witted children. But to have to go back to the basics every few months is so nauseating. Which is why this forum was created, why it was an instant success, and why it continues to thrive.
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George
Global Administrator
Head Honcho and Spangle of the Cosmos
Posts: 2,997
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Post by George on Jun 3, 2009 9:57:44 GMT 10
such divisions will eventually lead to the elimination of the forum Not as long as I'm running the place they won't. I don't "do" failure.
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Chas Jago
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Prime Minister
Posts: 137
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Post by Chas Jago on Jun 3, 2009 10:36:54 GMT 10
George I totally agree with you in your post below, but I felt that you seem to be rubbishing statements, comments and claims just because they didn't seem to meet your beliefs, if I am wrong I apologize, but I received several PM's in respect to posts you had made, that gave me the impression that the authors of said PM's felt like they couldn't make posts without the idea being rubbished by you. This impression was strengthened by your continued objection to Bahoudii and the posts you made about anything they say being lies or false. Even when members here questioned your opinion, you responded rather abruptly and enforced your view. The impression we received was that any one else's ideas/opinions would be rejected. If I am wrong I stand corrected. The old expression: if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen rings very appropriate. That is precisely my point, Julian. If people are terrified of having their comfortable beliefs, assumptions and preconceptions about micronationalism (or anything else) challenged, they probably shouldn't be here. LOM is not an exercise in back-slapping or mutual intellectual masturbation. Personally, I'm not here to validate people or make them feel comfortable. I'm here to challenge them, because it's only through challenging preconceptions and engaging in vigorous, rational analytical debate that micronationalists as a group will ever have a ghost of a chance of being treated by the world at large as something other than a bunch of delusional, half-witted children. But to have to go back to the basics every few months is so nauseating. Which is why this forum was created, why it was an instant success, and why it continues to thrive.
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Chas Jago
Full Member
Prime Minister
Posts: 137
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Post by Chas Jago on Jun 3, 2009 10:56:48 GMT 10
I have decided to recreate my membership here. I believe my departure may have been premature.
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George
Global Administrator
Head Honcho and Spangle of the Cosmos
Posts: 2,997
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Post by George on Jun 3, 2009 11:13:36 GMT 10
Chas,
I appreciate your comments, and accept your most gracious apology.
Welcome back.
If people ever feel that their opinions or concerns are somehow not being respected by me or anyone else, they have the option of letting me know via email, PM, or by posting a message detailing their specific concerns in the public forum; I will not be offended.
Like most people, I will be offended if people have concerns and choose to discuss them in secrecy, behind my back, without first making any effort to communicate with me - and then I find out about it later.
I hope this clarifies things.
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Post by commiczar on Jun 3, 2009 12:22:49 GMT 10
I have decided to recreate my membership here. I believe my departure may have been premature. Greetings chasj !! GREAT NEWS !! Glad that You reconsidered. I look forward to exchanging a great many ideas with You; as it is my personal belief, that the exchange / trading of ideas and views ( i.e. "intellectual property" ) within the MicroSphere, is similar in base-principle, to the trade of "physical property" between "macro" nations; as both: "intellectual" and "physical" ( real / tangible ) properties, are valuable for nations to co-exist, and exist at all. Once again, glad You stayed !! Highest of Regards !! _________________
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Post by davidv on Jun 4, 2009 13:50:37 GMT 10
In George's defence:
I'll admit that I don't agree with everything George says. But he has headed a long-established and substantial micronational entity for many years (though it does not call itself a micronation) and has taken an interest in similar such entities. He has also made some occasionally noteworthy contributions to wider society, particularly in the field of music broadcasting. So I give respect where respect is due.
The crux of the matter is tone. Discussion in a rational and civilised manner achieves something. Irrational and uncivilised discussion does not.
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George
Global Administrator
Head Honcho and Spangle of the Cosmos
Posts: 2,997
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Post by George on Jun 4, 2009 14:00:00 GMT 10
Thanks David.
I certainly hope people don't always agree with me; that would make for very pointless, boring discussion indeed!
...and for the benefit of other members, David's comments were written in response to a long, emotional, abusive rant directed at me by Shadowdarkfyre, which I deleted from this discussion without comment, in accordance with this forum's Terms of Use.
It is the very first message I have ever had to delete from this forum - and I hope that it will be the last.
Since it was set up in March, this forum has quickly become the benchmark by which all other micronational forums are judged.
We enjoy a consistent high volume of civil, rational, mature discussion on a fascinating, diverse range of topics, from a fascinating, diverse range of contributors.
We've also been fortunate to enjoy an almost complete lack of the sort of snideness, nastiness and disrespect that has been the death of other micronation forums.
I think this reflects well on the character of all who have contributed here, and I look forward to it continuing indefinitely.
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Post by davidv on Jun 13, 2009 17:51:26 GMT 10
I think the key in cases like these is not to jump to any kind of conclusions.
Bahoudii were semi-active in numerous micronational discussion groups in years past, which points to evidence of activity. One person involved with them also claimed that they were "more active in real life than on the Internet"- whether that can be verified I don't know.
For all we know, Bahoudii may be serious about developing a territorial micronation, but have chosen to keep a low profile and be secretive about it for reasons of privacy and security- they may want to attract unwanted attention, in light of numerous incidents with "ambitious" micronations (Freedonia, Lomar being good examples). It may be an ongoing project/work in progress.
If anything all micronational entities are equal in, it is that they are not likely to be recognised as soviereign entities by any macronational entity- ever. Having contacts with such, conducting business relationships (if at all) with "real world" organisations is another thing altogether.
It is because of this that people positioning their micronation as "above" the rest of micronationalism is usually absurd- unless you have legitimate grounds for claiming that your micronation has done better and accomplished more. It is at worst a snobbish and alienating stance to take.
This also reminds me of the whole "obsession with recognition" thing that was rampant in the "boom era" of online micronationalism. Many of them formed after Talossa came online and attracted media attention- and initially Talossa was open to having relations with them but after a couple of years instituted a policy of shunning relations with most if not all micronations. This led to a negative perception in the minds of some, but in some ways was also vindicated in hindsight due to the general crash of online micronationalism since.
So in a nutshell very few micronations have any right to consider themselves "above" others unless they have been of very long standing and accomplished something noteworthy. It is very much a "glass houses" thing.
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George
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Head Honcho and Spangle of the Cosmos
Posts: 2,997
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Post by George on Jun 13, 2009 20:24:54 GMT 10
people positioning their micronation as "above" the rest of micronationalism is usually absurd- unless you have legitimate grounds for claiming that your micronation has done better and accomplished more. I've always assumed that was pretty self-evident. Nonetheless, there always seems to be an oversupply of micronations demanding that they be treated as though they're members of the UN, despite the fact that they were founded last week, have a population of 1, and a list of achievements that can be written on the back of a matchbox with room to spare. This also reminds me of the whole "obsession with recognition" thing I've never understood the whole "recognition" thing. There is no such thing as "recognition" in the real world, among real sovereign states, so I don't see why people pursue it so singlemindedly in the micronational world. "Recognition" in its own right is not a legal concept; sovereign states do not "recognise" each other, as though they are members of some sort of private club. They establish bilateral relations based on mutual interest - a subtle but very significant difference. Many micronations seem to view "recognition" as some sort of holy grail that can be "achieved" by sleight of hand; for example, some micronations claim to be "recognised" because their passport has been stamped by a border guard in some third world country, or because someone from a "real" government responded to a piece of correspondence they sent to said government. This is complete nonsense. Getting a passport stamped or having a letter answered does not mean that your micronation has a bilateral relationship with the sovereign state whose employee did the stamping or signed the letter. The establishment of formal diplomatic relations is not a game of "gotcha!" The only way of establishing a bilateral diplomatic relationship is via the formal exchange of accredited diplomatic officials, as set out in the [url= Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations [/url] and the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations. No micronation has ever achieved this, nor are they ever likely to. Were one to do so that micronation would no longer be a micronation, but a sovereign state, just like all the others that exist in the world today. So in a nutshell very few micronations have any right to consider themselves "above" others unless they have been of very long standing and accomplished something noteworthy. I agree completely; you can count those ones on one hand.
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